My position on Iraq

"No, Bush Sr. left him in power because the same weak-kneed mealy-mouth liberals who are screaming about the war today, were pleading with us to give him one last chance. You are right, we should have taken him out in '91, no questions asked."

I agree with you Dixie. In 1991 it was weak-kneed, mealy-mouth liberals who stopped Bush from going to Baghdad and finishing off Saddam. Why, here is one of them right here, check this out, you won't believe what a weak liberal this guy is!:

"I would guess if we had gone in there, I would still have forces in Baghdad today. We'd be running the country. We would not have been able to get everybody out and bring everybody home.

"And the final point that I think needs to be made is this question of casualties. I don't think you could have done all of that without significant additional U.S. casualties. And while everybody was tremendously impressed with the low cost of the (1991) conflict, for the 146 Americans who were killed in action and for their families, it wasn't a cheap war.

"And the question in my mind is how many additional American casualties is Saddam (Hussein) worth? And the answer is not that damned many. So, I think we got it right, both when we decided to expel him from Kuwait, but also when the president made the decision that we'd achieved our objectives and we were not going to go get bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq."
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/connelly/192828_joel29.html
 
Do you know who that was Dixie? Why that was that leftie moonbat, Dick Cheney! And you know, he hasn't changed. Oh no. I see him all the time at those anti-war protests with the other long hairs.
 
Well, it hasn't changed one bit. I still feel it was the right thing to do, and we will be better off in the long run for having done it.

I still feel there were things Bush and Rumsfeld bungled and misjudged, but the objective was met and it was what needed to be done.



Dixie, you spent two years on fp telling us what a great SecDef Rumsfeld was, and how great a job Rummy and Bush were doing in Iraq.

And you dismissed anyone who told you that Rummy and Bush were f*cking up, as a pinhead, a traitor, and a socialist.

Years later, are you ready to admit that - in spite of your years of insults - you were wrong, and we were right?

And are you prepared to submit an apology to those who told you Rummy was f*cking up, and which you readily admit now was indeed the case?
 
Ahjhhh.....!

How cute darla,BAC and Cypress doing the Liberal 'Dog Pile' on Dixie...Dixie has his own opinons and no matter how you jump on the diatribes..it will change absolutely no ones opinion of the three musketeers(Darla,BAC,Cypress)...give it a rest the gig is up...y'all are frauds!
 
Do you know who that was Dixie? Why that was that leftie moonbat, Dick Cheney! And you know, he hasn't changed. Oh no. I see him all the time at those anti-war protests with the other long hairs.

God you're so dumb. He is explaining the Bush Sr. rationale for capitulating to the weak-kneed mealy-mouth liberals who were screaming NO WAR in '91! Dubya could have taken the same path, made the same cop-out, and Saddam would still be in power, torturing his people, raping his women, instigating terror, and defying international order.

Weak-kneed mealy-mouth liberals aren't ever going to change, they will never be for war, it wouldn't matter if Saddam were raping their mother in the living room, they would still oppose taking military action. They would still cling to the dumbass belief that you can rationalize with irrational people, you can apply reasoning and diplomacy with the insane and evil.

The political pressure was applied in '91 and Sr. decided to not take out Saddam. The liberals cheered, and then promptly trounced him in the next election. Ironically, almost the same thing happened with his son, the liberals put their arm around his shoulder after 9/11, and promptly walked him to the edge of the cliff and kicked him off. The truth is, they approved the war and continue to approve the funding of the war, because taking out Saddam and giving freedom to Iraq was and is the right thing to do. Not easy... not popular... not instant... not without tremendous cost and consequence... but it IS the right thing to do. Liberals have waged an all-out war against the war, but they can't escape this truth.
 
"the liberals put their arm around his shoulder after 9/11, and promptly walked him to the edge of the cliff and kicked him off."

Yeah - poor Bush; we'd never be in this war if the liberals didn't push him kicking & screaming into it. One of history's great victims.
 
And are you prepared to submit an apology to those who told you Rummy was f*cking up, and which you readily admit now was indeed the case?

Rummy is a political casualty of war. You couldn't bring down Bush, Rove, Cheney, or any other administration official, so you focused on the weakest link, the Sec of Def. Rummy would have probably been one of the best peacetime SoD's we ever had, but his management style was not conducive with actual strategic military planning. We needed a Petreas for that, and Bush should have realized this earlier on. It's not that Rummy f*cked up, he just wasn't a military strategist, and lacked the ability to do the job he found himself doing. To complicate the matter, Rummy has a way of really pissing people off with his smugness. The media focused on this, and the cries for his resignation grew louder. In essence, it is similar to the problem with the Bush Administration, a complete lack of ability to effectively communicate with the public.
 
"the liberals put their arm around his shoulder after 9/11, and promptly walked him to the edge of the cliff and kicked him off."

Yeah - poor Bush; we'd never be in this war if the liberals didn't push him kicking & screaming into it. One of history's great victims.

Hmmm... don't see where I posted anything remotely close to what you derived.

We can go dig up the text of the speeches from Kerry & Co. if you like? I think most of the votes are on record too, we can dig those up if you need to see it again. After 9/11 the Liberals lined up to give Bush some sugar, to let us all know we are united as Americans and ready to go get those mean old terrorists, regardless of our political views. No sooner than we begin, the very same liberals are denying they ever agreed to such a thing. Backstabbing, lying, manipulating, making stuff up... pulling every stunt they can to convince the stupid, they never authorized this war.
 
You wanna dig up Kerry's speech, Dix? He goes to incredible lengths to detail all of the steps he expected Bush to take before even CONSIDERING the use of force, which he then said should come in the form of strategic airstrikes, and not fullscale invasion. Why don't you dig that one up for us - the whole thing. I'd like that.

You miserable, revisionist liar. You're drowning in blood from this war, and looking for any life preserver you can. It isn't working.
 
God you're so dumb. He is explaining the Bush Sr. rationale for capitulating to the weak-kneed mealy-mouth liberals who were screaming NO WAR in '91! Dubya could have taken the same path, made the same cop-out, and Saddam would still be in power, torturing his people, raping his women, instigating terror, and defying international order.

Weak-kneed mealy-mouth liberals aren't ever going to change, they will never be for war, it wouldn't matter if Saddam were raping their mother in the living room, they would still oppose taking military action. They would still cling to the dumbass belief that you can rationalize with irrational people, you can apply reasoning and diplomacy with the insane and evil.

The political pressure was applied in '91 and Sr. decided to not take out Saddam. The liberals cheered, and then promptly trounced him in the next election. Ironically, almost the same thing happened with his son, the liberals put their arm around his shoulder after 9/11, and promptly walked him to the edge of the cliff and kicked him off. The truth is, they approved the war and continue to approve the funding of the war, because taking out Saddam and giving freedom to Iraq was and is the right thing to do. Not easy... not popular... not instant... not without tremendous cost and consequence... but it IS the right thing to do. Liberals have waged an all-out war against the war, but they can't escape this truth.

Actually he’s explaining why he agreed that it was the best possible decision. I can’t imagine being so enamored of a politician, that you have to delude yourself in this manner.
 
I guess Darla neve read Dixies ode to bush about how much he liked to see bush walk around in Jeans to hear him talk, etc ?
 
Up to this point, I think you are fairly accurate, except that we had no way of "controlling" Saddam Hussein from the outside. Our intelligence was shoddy to say the least, and what we did know (or think we knew) wasn't good. So, how do you effectively insure you have him under control? It's impossible, and it was a risk we simply couldn't afford to take after 9/11.
Saddam could have been effectively controlled by judicious use of military force without resorting to invasion. Instead, we were limiting ourselves to political force which Saddam was using for his own purposes.

No, Bush Sr. left him in power because the same weak-kneed mealy-mouth liberals who are screaming about the war today, were pleading with us to give him one last chance. You are right, we should have taken him out in '91, no questions asked. But Bushes seem to lack that certain something... that backbone or balls... whatever, that enables them to pull the trigger and do what they should do. Daddy got shot down because he hesitated, then got booted out of office because he backed down on his tax pledge, and his son followed the same pattern with Iraq. He followed Colin Powell through the UN maze, instead of executing executive authority and getting the job done. Do you think Clinton would've handled Saddam the same as Bush? No way! He would have taken Saddam out in the dark of night, and given a 10-minute press conference the next day, and that would have been the end of it.
I did not suggest the reasons Bush Sr. left Saddam in power. As for Clinton, he also left Saddam in power after writing an executive order making the removal of Saddam from power a national goal.

Again, it doesn't matter what we SHOULD have done in 1991. Because we should have done something years ago, doesn't mean we shouldn't do it now.
yes it does matter because the political and military environment were significantly different in 1991 indicating a significantly different result has we done so in 1991. The difference between 1991 and 2003 in political and military environment in 2003 was reason to NOT engage in a ground war/invasion/occupation.

The entire WMD thing was overboard, in my opinion. The "fault" I have with Bush is his incessant basing of the war on WMD's, which he had to be smart enough to understand, were never going to be found. How he let the media dwell on this, and his political adversaries thrive on this for so long, is beyond me. The basis, premise, reason, whatever, should have never been presented on the grounds of WMD's alone, and it often was.
Yes, Bush screwed the pooch by overstating the WMD situation in Iraq. In fact in several areas he and his administration flat out lied about how the WMD situation in Iraq translated to a threat to the U.S. And the reason for overstating the WMD situation is there was no other valid reason to support a ground war in Iraq.

The "international situation" was, the UN voted unanimously to support serious consequences for failure to comply, then wanted to back down when he didn't comply. Bush should have realized this was going to happen, the UN has never acted against any nation with "serious consequence" other than passing a freaking resolution. Woooo... that's serious! The Bush Mistake here was going to the UN in the first place. If the administration argument was based on CIA intelligence which suggested a direct threat to our security, the president need not consult the UN about action.
Problem is there WAS no direct threat to the U.S. from Saddam's weapons, even if they had existed. Saddam was in no way stupid enough to have even remotely contemplated a direct attack on the U.S. As justification for a ground war in Iraq, it was a flat lie. The real threat was Saddam allowing terrorists access to WMDs. And even that was not a direct threat to the U.S. because the terrorist factions Saddam supported were focussed on Israel.

For your information, and not a lot of people are aware of this, we had been routinely bombing "nefarious locations" in Iraq out of our bases in Saudi Arabia since 1995 under president Clinton. Each time we bomb buildings, there is a real possibility of collateral damage, and I am sure it did happen over the years, we just didn't hear about it.

I had your idea when all this UN inspection debacle was taking place, I said they should target a presidential palace each day until Saddam capitulated.
The bombing was minimal, and each mission WAS under scrutiny. Plenty of namby pambys were loudly complaining about the collateral damage of each and every bombing attack used. What should have happened is as I described: every time the UN inspection team was delayed or thwarted from inspecting a proposed site, we should have simply bombed that site within 12 hours of being told the UN was not allowed there. If Saddam was simply playing games, that would have ended his games after a couple rounds. If he was seriously hiding things from the UN inspection teams, those items would have been destroyed. Either way, Saddam would have lost his gambit without the need to resort to an ill timed and ill conceived invasion.

Here is another myth perpetrated by the left, we didn't make Afghanistan a "secondary effort" at all. This particular country is one of the most difficult battle terrains in all of the world, ask the Russians. We bombed the holy shit out of Tora Bora, for three days! Another critical Bush mistake, was trusting the bastards who made the deal in the desert, to bring Osama out of the caves. The reasoning was understandable, we couldn't easily get heavy artillery in there, it would have taken us weeks to do what they thought could be done in a day.

The motivation, rationale, and reasoning for the war were legitimate, and probably should have come in '91, or sooner, for that matter. The results of a liberated Iraq are not going to be realized immediately, or maybe not even in our lifetime, but I believe it will have been the right thing to do, when history looks back on it.
Yes we did make Afghanistan a secondary effort. The very reasons you mention are the reasons a full scale ground attack was necessary in Afghanistan. A few days bombings hardly constitutes anywhere NEAR a maximum military effort on our part - whereas Afghanistan REQUIRED maximum military effort. Instead we relied on a bombing campaign which was, of course, unsuccessful. We did NOT use a heavy ground force in Afghanistan because we had committed too much of our ground forces in Iraq. Of total ground forces committed, Iraq received 3 TIMES the ground force committed to Afghanistan.

Had we had our own ground units in place and in full force, we would not have had to rely on anyone but ourselves to bring OBL out of the mountains. We could well have herded OBL and his top cronies into an area of our choosing and THEN either gone in and dragged the SOB out by his left ear, or bombed the hell out of his caves sealing him inside where he could do no harm.

But without the ground forces we needed, we ended up missing the boat, the target, AND many of the long term goals in Afghanistan.
 
Saddam could have been effectively controlled by judicious use of military force without resorting to invasion. Instead, we were limiting ourselves to political force which Saddam was using for his own purposes.

No, that's what we HAD BEEN doing! Since the establishment of no-fly zones following the first Gulf War, we were routinely targeting suspicious buildings and monitoring suspicious activities inside Iraq.

Problem is there WAS no direct threat to the U.S. from Saddam's weapons, even if they had existed. Saddam was in no way stupid enough to have even remotely contemplated a direct attack on the U.S. As justification for a ground war in Iraq, it was a flat lie. The real threat was Saddam allowing terrorists access to WMDs. And even that was not a direct threat to the U.S. because the terrorist factions Saddam supported were focussed on Israel.

Exactly why the case should have not been made on WMD's as it was. The security threat for the United States, in a post-9/11 world, was the risk of Saddam's technology falling into the hands of alQaeda. Chem/Bio weapons degrade, so any supposed threat from the physical weapons themselves, would be very limited anyway.

In my opinion, there was enough evidence of Saddam's ties to terrorism, this should have been the sole basis for unilateral action. Failure of Saddam to comply with the UN resolutions, was a breach of his Gulf War cease-fire agreement, and we were also within our rights to resume hostilities, no further mandate from the UN was needed.

The bombing was minimal, and each mission WAS under scrutiny. Plenty of namby pambys were loudly complaining about the collateral damage of each and every bombing attack used. What should have happened is as I described: every time the UN inspection team was delayed or thwarted from inspecting a proposed site, we should have simply bombed that site within 12 hours of being told the UN was not allowed there. If Saddam was simply playing games, that would have ended his games after a couple rounds. If he was seriously hiding things from the UN inspection teams, those items would have been destroyed. Either way, Saddam would have lost his gambit without the need to resort to an ill timed and ill conceived invasion.

The bombing in Iraq was never minimal. Clinton ordered sorties up until December 2000, and Bush resumed the missions within minutes of taking office, and that was the longest period of non-bombing in Iraq since the end of the Gulf War.

The UN Inspection team was a joke. After he kicked the UN inspectors out the first time, we should have taken him out, no more questions asked, no more resolutions, no more fucking around with the UN! The mission of the UN Inspectors was perverted by the leftist media and the liberals, and now, the vast majority of the public is under the impression the inspectors were charged with finding WMD's. This was not the case, but it is the illusion drawn by those who opposed the war. The inspectors were supposed to be confirming WMD's had been destroyed, pursuant to past agreements with Saddam. It was never their job to scour Iraq looking for any WMD's he may have hidden away.

Yes we did make Afghanistan a secondary effort. The very reasons you mention are the reasons a full scale ground attack was necessary in Afghanistan. A few days bombings hardly constitutes anywhere NEAR a maximum military effort on our part - whereas Afghanistan REQUIRED maximum military effort. Instead we relied on a bombing campaign which was, of course, unsuccessful. We did NOT use a heavy ground force in Afghanistan because we had committed too much of our ground forces in Iraq. Of total ground forces committed, Iraq received 3 TIMES the ground force committed to Afghanistan.

Iraq happened AFTER Afghanistan! How did we commit ground forces to a war two years before it was to be waged? Iraq had NO effect on our planning or implementing the war in Afghanistan, again this is liberal media hype which was forged into a story line and repeated for three years until everyone bought in. If we didn't have sufficient troops in Afghanistan, it was not because of Iraq, it was because we underestimated how many would be needed to start with. I actually don't think that was the case, a billion troops would not have guaranteed the capture of OBL any more than the number we had there.

Did we screw up capturing OBL? You bet! But it is a testament to how deplorable and unreliable our intelligence was, and underscores why we had no choice but to invade Iraq and take out the threat from Saddam Hussein.
 
to misunderstand the difference between palestinian nationalist terrorist organizations and islamic extremist terrorist organizations and to somehow conflate them and consider them both to be equal threats to the United States is an incredible and willful failure of the Bush administration, and of you, Dixie.

That Saddam supported the former was NO reason to invade him to prevent his mythical WMD's from getting into the hands of the latter.

It has only served to stir the pot in Iraq and inflame the arab street across the region, reduce our credibility in the world community, decrease the support of our allies, cost 34K american casualties, a half a trillion taxpayer dollars and waste five plus years in our real fight against the real enemy who attacked us on 9/11.
 
the real enemy who attacked us on 9/11?

And who is that? the "real" enemy..

All the pilots are dead...and the so-called master mind is OBL....in hiding....

Is he the 'real enemy'....? Catch him and its all over?

Is that your mindset? Its just this dude in hiding.....its not Islamic fanatics we at war with....its not the Islamic faith that teaches its youth to kill the infidel wherever it finds them....there is no real jihad, right?
WHO is the "real" enemy, as you see it...besides Bush...
 
the real enemy who attacked us on 9/11?

And who is that? the "real" enemy..

All the pilots are dead...and the so-called master mind is OBL....in hiding....

Is he the 'real enemy'....? Catch him and its all over?

Is that your mindset? Its just this dude in hiding.....its not Islamic fanatics we at war with....its not the Islamic faith that teaches its youth to kill the infidel wherever it finds them....there is no real jihad, right?
WHO is the "real" enemy, as you see it...besides Bush...

the real enemy is islamic extremism. the vast majority of muslims do not subscribe to its philosophy.... there was no real nexus of threat existing in Iraq that would require our invasion, conquest and occupation. the war in Iraq has been a costly diversion in the war against our real enemy, IMHO.

The "war" will never be won militarily or conventionally. This war is a war of ideologies and we "win" when our interests and our ideology prevails in the world. Fighting this as if it were a conventional military battle against geographically tied nation states will doom us to failure, IMHO.
 
the real enemy is islamic extremism. the vast majority of muslims do not subscribe to its philosophy....
EXACTLY. Which is why it is ridiculous to focus on what U.S. actions "led" Islamic extremists to hate us. Extremism never needs REASONS, only excuses. And had we not "handed" them one excuse (through the legitimate action of protecting an economic ally against a war of aggression) they would have found another.

...there was no real nexus of threat existing in Iraq that would require our invasion, conquest and occupation. The war in Iraq has been a costly diversion in the war against our real enemy, IMHO.
Not so exactly. While I believe the ground war was a serious strategic mistake, the act of taking Saddam down was an essential act in the overall war against terrorism. Just because we were not a direct target of Saddam's manipulations does not mean the U.S. would have been completely on the sidelines if Saddam had had his way with sponsoring terrorism against Israel. It is impossible to say, but the long term could well have been just as expensive in monetary terms, and even possibly in lives if Saddam had escalated events against Israel.

The "war" will never be won militarily or conventionally. This war is a war of ideologies and we "win" when our interests and our ideology prevails in the world. Fighting this as if it were a conventional military battle against geographically tied nation states will doom us to failure, IMHO.
Again, not so exactly. While conventional warfare will not work against terrorism directly, using conventional warfare against terrorist supporting nation states does affect the ability of terrorist organizations to make war on us. One of the most effective strategies of warfare of any kind is to interfere with your enemy's ability to wage war against you. If your enemy becomes to weak to fight, you have won, even if you never hit them directly.

While we are not fighting a nation state per se, the fact is international terrorist organizations, if they are to have the strength to be a significant threat against the U.S. or our allies, NEED nation states to support them in areas to hide, areas to train, material support, etc. That is why taking on Afghanistan made sense to all but the most glassy-eyed peace activists. Afghanistan was a haven for AlQueda (and others) because the Afghan government deliberately assisted with their activities. Remove their haven and terrorism has no place to train, plan or hide.

Iraq was another haven. And while the target of the Iraq supported terrorists was not against the U.S., they were most definitely against one of our most important allies in the region. Again, the ground war was stupid, but taking on Iraq as a supporter of international terrorism was NOT stupid.
 
No, that's what we HAD BEEN doing! Since the establishment of no-fly zones following the first Gulf War, we were routinely targeting suspicious buildings and monitoring suspicious activities inside Iraq.

Exactly why the case should have not been made on WMD's as it was. The security threat for the United States, in a post-9/11 world, was the risk of Saddam's technology falling into the hands of alQaeda. Chem/Bio weapons degrade, so any supposed threat from the physical weapons themselves, would be very limited anyway.

In my opinion, there was enough evidence of Saddam's ties to terrorism, this should have been the sole basis for unilateral action. Failure of Saddam to comply with the UN resolutions, was a breach of his Gulf War cease-fire agreement, and we were also within our rights to resume hostilities, no further mandate from the UN was needed.

The bombing in Iraq was never minimal. Clinton ordered sorties up until December 2000, and Bush resumed the missions within minutes of taking office, and that was the longest period of non-bombing in Iraq since the end of the Gulf War.

The UN Inspection team was a joke. After he kicked the UN inspectors out the first time, we should have taken him out, no more questions asked, no more resolutions, no more fucking around with the UN! The mission of the UN Inspectors was perverted by the leftist media and the liberals, and now, the vast majority of the public is under the impression the inspectors were charged with finding WMD's. This was not the case, but it is the illusion drawn by those who opposed the war. The inspectors were supposed to be confirming WMD's had been destroyed, pursuant to past agreements with Saddam. It was never their job to scour Iraq looking for any WMD's he may have hidden away.

Iraq happened AFTER Afghanistan! How did we commit ground forces to a war two years before it was to be waged? Iraq had NO effect on our planning or implementing the war in Afghanistan, again this is liberal media hype which was forged into a story line and repeated for three years until everyone bought in. If we didn't have sufficient troops in Afghanistan, it was not because of Iraq, it was because we underestimated how many would be needed to start with. I actually don't think that was the case, a billion troops would not have guaranteed the capture of OBL any more than the number we had there.

Did we screw up capturing OBL? You bet! But it is a testament to how deplorable and unreliable our intelligence was, and underscores why we had no choice but to invade Iraq and take out the threat from Saddam Hussein.
1: The bombing in Iraq WAS minimal. All you need do is look at what happened when we REALLY started bombing Iraq (remember "Shock and Awe?) to compare what a concentrated effort looks like compared to a minimal token effort. Yea, we hit this and that target once or twice a month with a half dozem smart bombs or a couple cruise missiles. That IS minimal considering our goals.

2: The UN inspectors were never "kicked out". They were withdrawn when the UN decided it was going no where, and also decided against taking any additional actions to force the issue. Ditto the second effort. And yes, they were there to assure the WMDs on record were destroyed. When the counts of destroyed weapons came up short, that is when Bush turned it into an excuse to invade.

3: The effort in Afghanistan was minimized because Iraq was already being targeted. Or are you unaware that the process of going to pointing at Iraq (ie: Saddam) as a character of significant threat to garnering Congressional support (as well as public support) took a good two years to accomplish?

I know for a fact which USMC units were sent to Afghanistan, which were held in reserve for Afghanistan, and which units were held aside "just in case they were needed elsewhere" - with the "elsewhere" being Iraq. I know which units were given warning orders to TRAIN for Iraq (ie: given engineering maps of the region, terrain analysis, orders of battle of enemy troops, started playing war games using the region as the scenario and using Iraqi forces and doctrine in OpFor, etc.) a full 18 months before we invaded. No, we did NOT underestimate the forces needed in Afghanistan. We simply decided that Afghanistan was a secondary front in the war on terror, and that as long as we kept OBL on the run, it would be as effective as killing him. (Which is true from a tactical stand point, but not so true from a political/strategic stand.)
 
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