Neuroscientist loses a 25-year bet on consciousness — to a philosopher

[ZenMode]

Then I have no idea how you function day to day. Sounds like psychosis.

Why? The Neurological foundation of our brains is being continually sculpted by everything we experience before we can even remember. Those past events make us who we are and ultimately determine our thoughts, which then determine our actions. You mentioned not desiring (I believe ) to write about pop music. You aren't free to want what you don't want if you truly don't want it. If you read something tomorrow that piqued your interest in pop music, you aren't free to not be interested in it. You aren't free to remember what you've truly forgotten. You also aren't free to forget what you know. You can't use free will to not know that 2+2 is 4.

 

[Hume]

Why? The Neurological foundation of our brains is being continually sculpted by everything we experience before we can even remember. Those past events make us who we are and ultimately determine our thoughts, which then determine our actions. You mentioned not desiring (I believe ) to write about pop music. You aren't free to want what you don't want if you truly don't want it. If you read something tomorrow that piqued your interest in pop music, you aren't free to not be interested in it. You aren't free to remember what you've truly forgotten. You also aren't free to forget what you know. You can't use free will to not know that 2+2 is 4.

Okay, agree with what you said.

 

[ZenMode]

Okay, agree with what you said.

Ok.....then you agree we don't have free will?

 

[Hume]

Ok.....then you agree we don't have free will?

We don't have same definition of free will.

 

[ZenMode]

We don't have same definition of free will.

I agree. What does it mean, to you, to have free will?

 

[Hume]

I agree. What does it mean, to you, to have free will?

To act without external constraint.

 

[Daylight63]

If you believe your self awareness is an illusion that's your choice.

My self awareness feels self evident to me, and is manifested by properties we do not yet understand in the prefrontal cortex and hippocampus, which seem to be where conscious thinking and memory are fixated.

Everyone values that feeling. And to every single person on earth it certainly feels self-evident (no pun intended).

But the weird shit happens when you look at the data and the question comes up legitimately: what if it's not real?

That's the cool stuff. Scary as fuck to even consider, but what if the data is showing us the truth and we just don't like it.

 

[Cypress]

Everyone values that feeling. And to every single person on earth it certainly feels self-evident (no pun intended).

But the weird shit happens when you look at the data and the question comes up legitimately: what if it's not real?

That's the cool stuff. Scary as fuck to even consider, but what if the data is showing us the truth and we just don't like it.

It's possible through logical deduction to estimate there is a 20 percent chance we are living ones computer simulation.

My opinion is I don't think biological evolution is out to play tricks on us. Our sensory perception, our self identity, and self awareness are evolutionary adaptations that I don't think are supposed to be illusions. Evolution gave us tools that we should be able to reasonably trust to represent some kind of realistic and self-evident state of nature.

 

[ZenMode]

To act without external constraint.

If we are talking about, for example, you selecting any movie you could possibly select, But you didn't select one simply because that movie name didn't occur in consciousness, what was the external constraint?

 

[Daylight63]

It's possible through logical deduction to estimate there is a 20 percent chance we are living ones computer simulation.

My opinion is I don't think biological evolution is out to play tricks on us.

And this is the key difference between our positions. You seem to imbue the universe with some necessary "care" about you or I or anyone. I don't see that from the universe. In fact the vast majority of the universe is perfectly antithetical to you and I.

You characterize it as nature "playing a trick on you" but really it isn't even that involved. Nature simply doesn't seem to care about you per se. The only thing that really matters to living things is staying alive and propagating the cell line. Everything else is just ancillary. And we humans definitely LIVE AS MUCH OF OUR LIVES in that space. It's really the ONLY REASON TO WANT TO LIVE -- the ancillary stuff.

We're "house cats". We are an advanced predator that used its massive brain to dominate the rest of its ecosystems until it had no new worlds to conquer and it settled itself and began to grow it's mind. We became much more intelligent and our thinking became more abstract. But at our core there's still that savannah-dwelling monkey-man we were at one time. In fact that disjunct is at the heart of a lot of anxiety disorders!

I say we are housecats because we are no longer "wild" but our wildness is still in there somewhere.

Our sensory perception, our self identity, and self awareness are evolutionary adaptations that I don't think are supposed to be illusions. Evolution gave us tools that we should be able to reasonably trust to represent some kind of realistic and self-evident state of nature.

The system we have certainly works perfectly. Which is not to say that it may be at least partially illusory. IF THE SCIENCE IS CORRECT.

 

[Cypress]

And this is the key difference between our positions. You seem to imbue the universe with some necessary "care" about you or I or anyone. I don't see that from the universe. In fact the vast majority of the universe is perfectly antithetical to you and I.

You characterize it as nature "playing a trick on you" but really it isn't even that involved. Nature simply doesn't seem to care about you per se. The only thing that really matters to living things is staying alive and propagating the cell line. Everything else is just ancillary. And we humans definitely LIVE AS MUCH OF OUR LIVES in that space. It's really the ONLY REASON TO WANT TO LIVE -- the ancillary stuff.

We're "house cats". We are an advanced predator that used its massive brain to dominate the rest of its ecosystems until it had no new worlds to conquer and it settled itself and began to grow it's mind. We became much more intelligent and our thinking became more abstract. But at our core there's still that savannah-dwelling monkey-man we were at one time. In fact that disjunct is at the heart of a lot of anxiety disorders!

I say we are housecats because we are no longer "wild" but our wildness is still in there somewhere.



The system we have certainly works perfectly. Which is not to say that it may be at least partially illusory. IF THE SCIENCE IS CORRECT.

I don't think evolution equipped me with a palpable sense of self awareness, perception, and self-identity as an illusion, figment of imagination, or fantasy.
The simplest and most sensible interpretation is that evolution equipped me with tools that realistically represent a state of nature. It's not just an illusion.

 

[Cypress]

Cool. It will turn out to be organic, of course. Maybe a combination of neurons and neural density, neurochemicals, processing speed?


We know that a blow to the head can make us unconscious. But why?

You're right, consciousness can reasonably be expected to be related to the organic matter of the brain.

I don't know that much about sleep and unconsciousness and how they relate to waking consciousness. An interesting question.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

You're right, consciousness can reasonably be expected to be related to the organic matter of the brain.

I don't know that much about sleep and unconsciousness and how they relate to waking consciousness. An interesting question.

My hypothesis, based on empirical evidence: Have you ever stroked or tickled a bit of your body and noticed that soon the pleasurable sensation either turns unpleasant or is gone and almost numb? You ran out of both neurochemicals and neurotransmitters. I think that is probably the same thing that appens to the brain after a severe blow. Massive stimuli followed by a recovery shutdown.

So it would seem that what we think of as consciousness is a function of chemical interactions and the structures that transmit their information. But how do we measure that? How do we say confidently that "these chemical messengers and that physical reactino are what makes Jane able to think and talk and take in information and process it? By these measures animals are also conscious. But what do we mean by that word? Are they aware of being conscious like we are?

It's cool to ponder on, isn't it?

 

[Hume]

If we are talking about, for example, you selecting any movie you could possibly select, But you didn't select one simply because that movie name didn't occur in consciousness, what was the external constraint?

You are referring to memory. Memory is just one aspect of thought.