New poll: 21% of atheists believe in God

NO ONE that believes in god is an atheist by definition. If they LIED and said they were atheists they would be lying believers in god, which is of course a violation of many religious organizations beliefs. A lying believer can never be an atheist. Calling a pig a puppy does not make it so.

Hey fuckwit... I KNOW what the DEFINITION of "ATHEIST" is! That is NOT what I said, nor what I meant! People are not ALWAYS honest about what they personally believe! Just as I can TELL you I am a Christian.... doesn't MEAN that I AM a Christian... just means I SAID I WAS! It's possible for people to LIE!!

The point again... MANY "ATHEISTS" (READ: PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO BE ATHEIST) ARE THE BIGGEST BELIEVERS IN GOD! They LIE about being Atheist, they LIE about not believing in a God! They do this for a variety of reasons, mostly anger toward God for something they hold God responsible for. And I didn't say ALL Atheists do this, before you jump in here and interpret something into what I've said again!
 
No, it just means you are incapable of understanding God, so you should shut up.

You asked what you could do to observe the effects of God as you would to observe the effects of gravity, and I told you how. The fact that you aren't willing to attempt it, or don't have the desire to attempt it, doesn't mean the way wasn't articulated. If you told me to drop something to demonstrate the force of gravity, and I told you I was unwilling to drop something, does that prove gravity doesn't exist, or that I am a moron?
No Waterhead is completely right in this case. He asks how he can know god? You say to know god one must pray. So to prove that there is a god one must pray to that god. This is circular logic and fails.
 
Hey fuckwit... I KNOW what the DEFINITION of "ATHEIST" is! That is NOT what I said, nor what I meant! People are not ALWAYS honest about what they personally believe! Just as I can TELL you I am a Christian.... doesn't MEAN that I AM a Christian... just means I SAID I WAS! It's possible for people to LIE!!

The point again... MANY "ATHEISTS" (READ: PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO BE ATHEIST) ARE THE BIGGEST BELIEVERS IN GOD! They LIE about being Atheist, they LIE about not believing in a God! They do this for a variety of reasons, mostly anger toward God for something they hold God responsible for. And I didn't say ALL Atheists do this, before you jump in here and interpret something into what I've said again!
If a person believes in god and says they are an atheist, they are lying about being an atheist. NO REAL ATHEIST believes in god EVER.

I have been an atheist since I was a child, wasn't taught to me as my father was raised catholic and his mother took me to church before I could walk. I have NEVER believed in God. The whole idea is a preposterous as Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. God has no more helped me in my life than Santa has brought me presents, and the easter bunny hid my eggs. Religious belief is similar. We believe that the magic man will make our lives better if we believe he is the alpha and the omega, the creator of all laws. In reality, you don't need god to behave morally and you don't have to be an atheist to behave imorally. Believers all have their "testimony" as to why they believe in god, and their testimonies are ALL subjective and you CANNOT prove things by using only the subjective. Gallileo, Newton, Eistein they all PROVED things and those things can be proved today, or in some cases modified by subsequent testing. There is NOTHING that you can perform yourself and then lay out for me, that will allow me to discover god. NOTHING.
 
No Waterhead is completely right in this case. He asks how he can know god? You say to know god one must pray. So to prove that there is a god one must pray to that god. This is circular logic and fails.

Trouble is, that is not what I said. I suggest you read the thread again. I made the case that God is a "force" like gravity is a "force", and it can't be "proven" to someone unwilling to accept all possibilities or acknowledge/observe evidence. Waterhead then interjected, that with gravity, one could do an experiment (drop a ball) to demonstrate and prove gravity exits, and he challenged me to present a similar "test" to prove God's existence. PMP said... DIE... Which I agree, that would do it! But in a more rational sense, another way to do it is to PRAY. But Waterhead doesn't want to do the test! He refuses to accept that God may exist, so praying is irrelevant.

I say the same principles still apply. If I refuse to accept that "gravity" exists, no experiment is going to change my mind about that. Drop a ball and it falls to the ground... what does that prove? Maybe it proves that supernatural forces underground, are pulling things to the ground? If I refuse to accept the existence of gravity, and continue to presume something else is responsible for things falling to the ground, there is no way for you to prove to me gravity exists... it's impossible!
 
Trouble is, that is not what I said. I suggest you read the thread again. I made the case that God is a "force" like gravity is a "force", and it can't be "proven" to someone unwilling to accept all possibilities or acknowledge/observe evidence. Waterhead then interjected, that with gravity, one could do an experiment (drop a ball) to demonstrate and prove gravity exits, and he challenged me to present a similar "test" to prove God's existence. PMP said... DIE... Which I agree, that would do it! But in a more rational sense, another way to do it is to PRAY. But Waterhead doesn't want to do the test! He refuses to accept that God may exist, so praying is irrelevant.

I say the same principles still apply. If I refuse to accept that "gravity" exists, no experiment is going to change my mind about that. Drop a ball and it falls to the ground... what does that prove? Maybe it proves that supernatural forces underground, are pulling things to the ground? If I refuse to accept the existence of gravity, and continue to presume something else is responsible for things falling to the ground, there is no way for you to prove to me gravity exists... it's impossible!
All this proves is you have almost no understanding of Physics or of Gravity, less than even me.
 
All this proves is you have almost no understanding of Physics or of Gravity, less than even me.

Well if you want to take my example as a literal point being made, then so be it. I think it's clear to anyone who isn't profoundly retarded, that I was giving an example here, not expressing my personal beliefs on the existence of gravity.
 
For Dixie (But the rest of you will like it too)

Warning: Gravity is Only a Theory
by Ellery Schempp
Published in the Humanist, September/October 2006






All physics textbooks should include the following warning label:

This book contains material on gravity. Universal gravity is a theory, not a fact, regarding the natural law of attraction. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered.
The universal theory of gravity is often taught in schools as a "fact," when in fact it is not even a good theory.

First of all, no one has measured gravity for every atom and every star, so how do they know gravity is “universal?” Secondly, school textbooks routinely make false statements, such as “the moon goes around the Earth.” Simple arithmetic using the theory of gravity shows that the sun’s gravitational force on the moon is far greater than the Earth’s force on the moon. So, if the theory of gravity were true, the moon has to go around the sun. Anybody can look up at night and see the obvious “gaps” in gravity theory.

The existence of tides is often taken as proof of gravity, but this is logically flawed. Because if the moon's “gravity” were responsible for a bulge underneath the Earth, then how can anyone explain a high tide on the opposite side of the Earth at the same time? Anyone can observe that there are two high tides every day—not just one. It is far more likely that tides were given to us by an intelligent creator long ago and they have been with us ever since. In any case, two high tides falsifies gravity.

There are numerous other flaws. For example, astronomers, who seem to have a fetish for gravity, tell us that the moon rotates on its axis but at the same time it always presents the same face to Earth. Is it not patently absurd for both conditions to be true? Moreover, if gravity were working on the early Earth, then our planet would have been bombarded out of existence by falling asteroids, meteors, comets, and other space junk. Furthermore, gravity theory suggests that the planets have been moving in orderly orbits for millions and millions of years, which wholly contradicts the second law of thermodynamics. Since everything in the universe tends toward disorder according to this law, orderly orbits are impossible.

While microgravity can be observed when, for example, one drops an egg on the floor, this doesn’t prove that macrogravity exists. If there is macrogravity, why don't the sun, the moon, and the planets all fall down and hit the Earth, or why doesn’t the Earth fall into the sun? Heavenly bodies don’t fall, obviously, because there is no macrogravity. Some argue that planetary orbits are proof of gravity. According to gravitationalists, gravity applies in a straight line between different objects; gravity doesn’t make things spin in circles. But the planets do move in circles, and then the gravitationalists say such orbits prove macrogravity. This is mere circular reasoning.

Moreover, if gravity were a complete theory, it would show a full range of transitional forms. No one has ever found the missing links in gravity. Instead, it is presented as fact, with no adequate explanation of its origins. Gravity hasn’t been shown to be “irreducibly complex,” which undermines the claims for a universal theory.

In the interest of fair and balanced education, there are numerous alternative theories that should be taught on an equal basis. For example, the observed behavior of the Earth revolving around the sun can be perfectly explained if the sun has a net positive charge and the planets have a net negative charge, since opposite charges attract and the force is an inverse-square law, exactly like the increasingly discredited theory of gravity. Physics and chemistry texts emphasize that this is the explanation for electrons going around the nucleus. So if it works for atoms, why not for the solar system? The answer is simple: scientific orthodoxy. Teach the controversy.

The U.S. Patent Office has never issued a patent for antigravity. Why is this? According to natural law and homeopathy, everything exists in opposites: good-evil, grace-sin, positive-negative charges, north-south poles, good vibes-bad vibes, and so forth. We know there are antievolutionists, so why not antigravitationalists? This is clearly a case of the scientific establishment elite protecting its own. Antigravity papers are routinely rejected from peer-reviewed journals, and scientists who propose antigravity quickly lose their funding. Universal gravity theory is just a way to keep the grant money flowing.

Even Isaac Newton, said to be the discoverer of gravity, knew there were problems with the theory. He claims to have imagined the idea early in his life, but he knew that no mathematician of his day would accept his theory so he invented a whole new branch of mathematics, called fluxions, just to “prove” it. This became calculus, a deeply flawed branch having to do with so-called “infinitesimals,” which have never been observed. Then when Albert Einstein invented a new theory of gravity, he too used an obscure bit of mathematics called tensors. It seems that every time there is a theory of gravity, it gets mixed up with fringe mathematics. (Newton, by the way, was far from being a secular scientist, since the bulk of his writings focused on theology and Christianity. His dabbling in gravity, alchemy, and calculus was a mere sideline, perhaps an aberration best left forgotten in describing his career and faith in a creator.)

To make matters worse, proponents of gravity theory hypothesize about mysterious things called gravitons and gravity waves. These have never been observed, and when some accounts of detecting gravity waves were published, the physicists involved had to quickly retract them. Every account of antigravity and gravity waves quickly turns to laughter. This isn’t a theory suitable for children, and even kids can see how ridiculous it is that people in Australia are upside down with respect to us, as gravity theory would have it. If this is an example of the predictive power of the theory of gravity, we can see that, at the core, there is no foundation.

Gravity totally fails to explain why Saturn has rings and Jupiter does not. It utterly fails to account for obesity. In fact, what it does “explain” is far outweighed by what it doesn’t.
It is safe to say that without the theory of gravity, not only would talk about a “Big Bang” evaporate, but important limitations in such sports as basketball would be lifted. This would greatly benefit the games and enhance revenue, as is proper in a faith-based, free-enterprise society.

The theory of gravity violates common sense in many other ways. Adherents have a hard time explaining, for instance, why airplanes don’t fall out of the sky. Since antigravity is rejected by the scientific establishment, they resort to lots of hand waving. The theory, if taken seriously, implies that the default position for all airplanes is on the ground. While this may obviously be true for Northwest Airlines, it appears that Jet Blue and Southwest have succeeded in harnessing forces that succeed over so-called gravity.

It is unlikely that the laws of gravity will be repealed given the present geopolitical climate, but there is no need to teach unfounded theories in the public schools. There is, indeed, evidence that the theory of gravity is having a grave effect on morality. Activist judges and left-leaning teachers often use the phrase “what goes up must come down” as a way of describing gravity, and relativists have been quick to apply this to moral standards and common decency.

It isn’t even clear why we need a theory of gravity—there isn’t a single mention in the Bible, and the patriotic founding fathers never referred to it. If gravity wasn’t important in Moses’s day or that of Thomas Jefferson, it is ridiculous to take it seriously now.

Finally, the mere name “universal theory of gravity” (or theory of universal gravity—the secularists like to use confusing language) has a distinctly socialist ring to it. The core idea, “to each according to his weight, from each according to his mass” is suspiciously communist. There is no reason that gravity should apply to the just and the unjust equally, and the saved should have relief from such “universalism.” Furthermore, if we have universal gravity now, then universal health care will be sure to follow. It’s this kind of universalism that saps a nation’s moral fiber.

Overall, the theory of universal gravity is simply not an attractive theory. It is based on borderline evidence, has many serious gaps in what it claims to explain, is clearly wrong in important respects, and has social and moral deficiencies. If taught in the public schools by misdirected “educators” it has to be balanced with alternative, more attractive theories with genuine gravity and spiritual gravitas.

--


Ellery Schempp, Ph.D., a member of the American Humanist Association and Americans United for Separation of Church and State, is a retired physicist who did research in chemical physics, energy conservation, and MRI technology. He is also famous for being the high school student who initiated the case that led to the landmark U.S. Supreme Court decision in 1963 that declared devotional Bible readings in public schools unconstitutional.
 
Well, you would do the experiment to PROVE what you believe! What the fuck is the matter with your retarded ass? What kind of stupid question was that?

IF you refuse to accept the possibility God exists, it doesn't matter what kind of experiment you do! IF I refuse to accept the possibility gravity exists, it doesn't matter what kind of experiment I do! It's the same thing both ways! You can't "prove" something to me, if I am not willing to accept the possibility of what you are trying to prove! I can't "prove" something to you, if you're not willing to accept the possibility of what I am trying to prove! In order for experiments and evidence to have any validity, you have to open your mind to the possibility, and if you aren't willing to do that, if your mind is made up, all the evidence and experiments in the world do not matter!

Again, another strawman. I've said nothing of the sort. I don't refuse to accept God exists. There's no evidence for him, and that's why I don't believe.
 
Hey fuckwit... I KNOW what the DEFINITION of "ATHEIST" is! That is NOT what I said, nor what I meant! People are not ALWAYS honest about what they personally believe! Just as I can TELL you I am a Christian.... doesn't MEAN that I AM a Christian... just means I SAID I WAS! It's possible for people to LIE!!

The point again... MANY "ATHEISTS" (READ: PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO BE ATHEIST) ARE THE BIGGEST BELIEVERS IN GOD! They LIE about being Atheist, they LIE about not believing in a God! They do this for a variety of reasons, mostly anger toward God for something they hold God responsible for. And I didn't say ALL Atheists do this, before you jump in here and interpret something into what I've said again!

Again, Dixie, the atheist who doesn't believe in god because he's mad exists nowhere but in hollywood movies.
 
Well if you want to take my example as a literal point being made, then so be it. I think it's clear to anyone who isn't profoundly retarded, that I was giving an example here, not expressing my personal beliefs on the existence of gravity.
I think that is what you THOUGHT you were doing, but the theory of gravity, as it exists today, is provable by a great deal of highly complex math, the likes of which is not to be seen in any religious belief. There is no great formula, no great experiment. There are some books by Lewis, a book by several authors out of the Middle East region now known as Israel and Egypt, but no PROOF. As Damo says (sort of), once you take the leap to belief, there is nothing out there but faith.
 
Trouble is, that is not what I said. I suggest you read the thread again. I made the case that God is a "force" like gravity is a "force", and it can't be "proven" to someone unwilling to accept all possibilities or acknowledge/observe evidence. Waterhead then interjected, that with gravity, one could do an experiment (drop a ball) to demonstrate and prove gravity exits, and he challenged me to present a similar "test" to prove God's existence. PMP said... DIE... Which I agree, that would do it! But in a more rational sense, another way to do it is to PRAY. But Waterhead doesn't want to do the test! He refuses to accept that God may exist, so praying is irrelevant.

If I accepted God exists then there'd be no point in doing the experiment! You betray yourself over and over again. The only way to believe in religion is to believe in it. It turns empirical evidence on its head, and once such a damaging mind virus has been implanted in someones head its difficult to remove, because they don't believe it based on evidence! They believe in it because they believe in it!
 
Again, Dixie, the atheist who doesn't believe in god because he's mad exists nowhere but in hollywood movies.
Not only that but if he did exist, he would still not be an atheist because the act of being MAD AT GOD supposes god's existence and therefore defeats any claim of being an atheist. If I put my fingers in my ears and make noise when my wife is telling me something, that does not mean I think she no longer exists. I am still married. I did not for a time become single again.
 
If I accepted God exists then there'd be no point in doing the experiment! You betray yourself over and over again. The only way to believe in religion is to believe in it. It turns empirical evidence on its head, and once such a damaging mind virus has been implanted in someones head its difficult to remove, because they don't believe it based on evidence! They believe in it because they believe in it!

If I accepted Gravity exists then there'd be no point in doing the experiment! You betray yourself over and over again. The only way to believe in gravity is to believe in it. It turns empirical evidence on its head, and once such a damaging mind virus has been implanted in someones head its difficult to remove, because they don't believe it based on evidence! They believe in it because they believe in it!


Yep... works both ways, don't it?
 
Not only that but if he did exist, he would still not be an atheist because the act of being MAD AT GOD supposes god's existence and therefore defeats any claim of being an atheist. If I put my fingers in my ears and make noise when my wife is telling me something, that does not mean I think she no longer exists. I am still married. I did not for a time become single again.

But you may tell the hot blond at the bar you are single! :pke:
 
But you may tell the hot blond at the bar you are single! :pke:
Yes but I am still married no matter how much I say I am not. Being an atheist does not depend on what you tell people but on whether you actually an atheist and don't believe in god or the devil, or angels or demons.
 
I think that is what you THOUGHT you were doing, but the theory of gravity, as it exists today, is provable by a great deal of highly complex math, the likes of which is not to be seen in any religious belief. There is no great formula, no great experiment. There are some books by Lewis, a book by several authors out of the Middle East region now known as Israel and Egypt, but no PROOF. As Damo says (sort of), once you take the leap to belief, there is nothing out there but faith.

Actually, science is still somewhat baffled by gravity. There have been many theories regarding mass and it is presumes mass is somehow responsible for it, but they really don't know why and can't explain that. So, to say we know all there is to know about gravity and why it exists, is not accurate at all. We have ideas, we have theories, we don't have any empirical proof.
 
Yes but I am still married no matter how much I say I am not. Being an atheist does not depend on what you tell people but on whether you actually an atheist and don't believe in god or the devil, or angels or demons.

True, but being an atheist and saying you are an atheist, are two entirely different things. That WAS my point.... still cruising comfortably over your empty head!
 
True, but being an atheist and saying you are an atheist, are two entirely different things. That WAS my point.... still cruising comfortably over your empty head!
No you are not. You said that SOME athiests are the biggest believers or some such nonsense. NO ATHIESTS ARE EVER BELIEVERS. Some believers say they are atheists, for whatever reason, but remain nonetheless believers.
 
Actually, science is still somewhat baffled by gravity. There have been many theories regarding mass and it is presumes mass is somehow responsible for it, but they really don't know why and can't explain that. So, to say we know all there is to know about gravity and why it exists, is not accurate at all. We have ideas, we have theories, we don't have any empirical proof.

Dixie, please don't make another post on philosophy of science or physics. You are embarrassing yourself.
 
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