New Testament scholarship

[Yakuda]

Historical research criteria is premised on the criteria of independent attestation. The more independent attestations there are, the more it is considered reliable historic data.

A virgin birth is a remarkable thing. It's odd that the earliest Christian literary evidence lets it go without mentioning it.

I understand that. I asked you why it was "suspicious"

The earliest Christians believed Jesuss would be returning sooner than later. As time went on however it was becoming clear his return wasnt imminent. As a result numerous heresies began to take hold. In response the church formally clarified it's doctrines. This has led people to accusing the church of having "invented" doctrines. That's not the case at all.

 

[Cypress]

I understand that. I asked you why it was "suspicious"

The earliest Christians believed Jesuss would be returning sooner than later. As time went on however it was becoming clear his return wasnt imminent. As a result numerous heresies began to take hold. In response the church formally clarified it's doctrines. This has led people to accusing the church of having "invented" doctrines. That's not the case at all.

Suspicious = it's possibly a later legendary account added ad hoc to the two chronologically later Gospels.

There is some evidence in the Talmud based on Jewish oral tradition that Mary was impregnated by a Roman soldier. A legendary Christian account of a virgin birth may have seemed necessary to make Mary pure and discount any stories about her being impregnated by Roman's. It was also needed for theological reasons to match prophecy in the Septuigent.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Suspicious? Why it is suspicious?

He explained why in the link, Yak; a lack of documentation in the Gospels. Not to mention it defies both the laws of the Natural Universe and human biology.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I don't think there is any problem with schools having a copy of the Bible in the school library. I would assume the constitutional threshold is breached once teachers start giving lessons based on reading the Bible.

My understanding of the problem isn't reading from the Bible per se but reading from the Bible to the exclusion of other religious views including MAGAt Mammon worshiping and atheism.

 

[Yakuda]

Suspicious = it's possibly a later legendary account added ad hoc to the two chronologically later Gospels.

There is some evidence in the Talmud based on Jewish oral tradition that Mary was impregnated by a Roman soldier. A legendary Christian account of a virgin birth may have seemed necessary to make Mary pure and discount any stories about her being impregnated by Roman's. It was also needed for theological reasons to match prophecy in the Septuigent.

Great theories that don't really disprove anything.

 

[Cypress]

My understanding of the problem isn't reading from the Bible per se but reading from the Bible to the exclusion of other religious views.

I'm not a lawyer, so I'll have to plead ignorance. I can see the necessity of reading passages from the Bible or Baghavad Gita in a comparative world religions class

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The Virgin birth is far more important to Christian theology than you are giving credit. It establishes the Divinity of Jesus which is a major tenet of Christianity.

Catholics think that way moreso than Protestants.

IIRC, the virgin birth fulfilled prophecy of the Messiah.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Great theories that don't really disprove anything.

Just like the divinity of Jesus!

 

[Cypress]

Great theories that don't really disprove anything.

Reasonable people appreciate arguments that use reason.

Unreasonable people demand ironclad proof.

 

[Cypress]

The Virgin birth is far more important to Christian theology than you are giving credit. It establishes the Divinity of Jesus which is a major tenet of Christianity.

I am not saying it's not important to Christians.

I'm not a practicing Christian, I am an armchair historian who is interested in mining the NT for tidbits of historically reliable data using the accepted methods of historical scholarship.

If Mormonism is around in 2000 years, I would have to reconsider whether it is a religion or a cult. Standing the test of time is one criteria for whether a religion is a lasting source of spiritual truth to many people

 

[Cypress]

Catholics think that way moreso than Protestants.

IIRC, the virgin birth fulfilled prophecy of the Messiah.

I think the virgin birth is a Christian tradition, and part of the literary heritage of the church.

But I think you could remove the story of the virgin birth from Luke and Matthew and it wouldn't fundamentally affect Christian salvation at all. You're supposed to achieve spiritual liberation by faith in Jesus, receiving grace, practicing the sacraments, and doing good works, depending on which denomination it is.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I think the virgin birth is a Christian tradition, and part of the literary heritage of the church.

But I think you could remove the story of the virgin birth from Luke and Matthew and it wouldn't fundamentally affect Christian salvation at all. You're supposed to achieve spiritual liberation by faith in Jesus, receiving grace, practicing the sacraments, and doing good works, depending on which denomination it is.

Of course. It's part of establishing Jesus as the Messiah. My point is that the Virgin Mary, and the Virgin Birth, have a much higher importance in Catholicism than in any Protestant denominations I've seen/studied.

 

[Yakuda]

Reasonable people appreciate arguments that use reason.

Unreasonable people demand ironclad proof.

I very much appreciate your argument but an argument that doesn't seek truth is meaningless. Usually comments like yours above are intended only to make the person who said it feel better.

 

[Cypress]

Of course. It's part of establishing Jesus as the Messiah. My point is that the Virgin Mary, and the Virgin Birth, have a much higher importance in Catholicism than in any Protestant denominations I've seen/studied.

I don't know a ton about Protestants, so I will defer to you.

I think Christian theology and practice is to a very great extent based on Paul's epistles and the Gospel of John, neither of which have a birth narrative and both of which establish the divinity of Jesus

 

[Cypress]

I very much appreciate your argument but an argument that doesn't seek truth is meaningless. Usually comments like yours above are intended only to make the person who said it feel better.

When it comes to history, nothing can be proven with 100 percent certainty.

In fact, truth and certainty are only available in the realm of mathematics.

Everywhere else we have to use reason and probability to attain justified knowledge.

 

[Yakuda]

When it comes to history, nothing can be proven with 100 percent certainty.

In fact, truth and certainty are only available in the realm of mathematics.

Everywhere else we have to use reason and probability to attain justified knowledge.

I agree and in matters of faith it's even more tenuous

Some would argue otherwise even if they are wrong

That depends on what you decide to accept.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I very much appreciate your argument but an argument that doesn't seek truth is meaningless. Usually comments like yours above are intended only to make the person who said it feel better.

^^^
Says the person who runs around screaming "Demoncrats" are evil, all Democrats are Marxists and he wants to throw people in jail without due process. He also enjoys trolling and admits a desire to piss people off. He's not a Christian Sad

Ultimately no one respects a boot licker not even the person getting their boots licked. Demoncrats evil. They have little redeeming value. They add nothing and suck the life out of everything.

Well sure as shit know how many marxists we have, they have a D after their name. I think it stand for demented or dangerous

Throw the filthy pigs ass in jail.

LMFAO I absolutely love how much I piss you off. It's hilarious

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I don't know a ton about Protestants, so I will defer to you.

I think Christian theology and practice is to a very great extent based on Paul's epistles and the Gospel of John, neither of which have a birth narrative and both of which establish the divinity of Jesus

Protestants run a gamut of being pretty mellow to looney toons like Evangelicals. All of them acknowledge the virgin birth but don't have statues of Virgin Mary (a reason they call Catholics idolators) nor place as much emphasis on it the Resurrection.

Agreed about both Paul and the gospel of John as being the most prominent views pushed in modern American Christianity.

 

[Daylight63]

Cypress loves saying he is not a Christian, but talks nonstop about Christianity.

Why is that weird?

Christianity is the single biggest social construct we as a modern American society deal with on a daily basis. Whether we like it or not, we are NOT a secular nation. We only claim to be secular.

As such it's important to discuss the topic which seems to be at the basis of much of our society in the West even today.

I'm not saying the RULES necessarily hold us in any real sway (a lot of people are secular) but rather that social and cultural touchstones are OFTEN couched in Christianity. It is kind of where our society grew out of.

Look at the other thread about Collins v Dawkins: Collins came to religion through his wonder at the universe and guess what religion he arrived at? The one that dominated the society he lived in and grew up in.

Understanding how people see the world is always interesting and religion is one of the most interesting. It's especially fun to discuss because it's like tennis with a kind of loosey-goosey net that doesn't always stay up.

 

[Phantasmal]

Why is that weird?

Christianity is the single biggest social construct we as a modern American society deal with on a daily basis. Whether we like it or not, we are NOT a secular nation. We only claim to be secular.

As such it's important to discuss the topic which seems to be at the basis of much of our society in the West even today.

I'm not saying the RULES necessarily hold us in any real sway (a lot of people are secular) but rather that social and cultural touchstones are OFTEN couched in Christianity. It is kind of where our society grew out of.

Look at the other thread about Collins v Dawkins: Collins came to religion through his wonder at the universe and guess what religion he arrived at? The one that dominated the society he lived in and grew up in.

Understanding how people see the world is always interesting and religion is one of the most interesting. It's especially fun to discuss because it's like tennis with a kind of loosey-goosey net that doesn't always stay up.

Currently, there is nothing Christian about this nation.

Of course. It's part of establishing Jesus as the Messiah. My point is that the Virgin Mary, and the Virgin Birth, have a much higher importance in Catholicism than in any Protestant denominations I've seen/studied.

Mary replaced the goddesses of Paganism, Catholicism originated in the Roman Empire, while Protestantism developed later. Patriarchy was fully embraced by then, so there was no need to elevate Mary.