No evidence White House involved in ‘Fast and Furious’

LMAO... when the US Government hands the gun to a criminal, you find no accountability ?

Never said that. You used the term "murder" in response to my statement that I have not seen illegal conduct. Giving a gun to a criminal is not murder. It may be stupid, but it isn't murder.


What would you call it if another government deliberately handed assault weapons to criminals in the US known for murdering civilians, who then in turn killed our civilians?

To call it nonsense just shows how partisan you are.

I wouldn't call it an "act of war," that's for goddamned sure, particularly if said other government was our third largest trade partner. But that's just me.
 
Never said that. You used the term "murder" in response to my statement that I have not seen illegal conduct. Giving a gun to a criminal is not murder. It may be stupid, but it isn't murder.

Yes, when you hand a known murderer a weapon and that criminal murders a US citizen (and ATF agent), you are complicit in murder.

I wouldn't call it an "act of war," that's for goddamned sure, particularly if said other government was our third largest trade partner. But that's just me.

LOL... what does the fact that they are a large trading partner have to do with anything? We deliberately allowed Mexican gangs be provided with assault weapons that killed Mexican citizens. what exactly would you call that?
 
(1) Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

No...Mr. Heston. That doesn't apply here. Just like when little Bobby takes the unsecured gun from his "responsible gun owner" daddy's closet and shoots little Janie's brains out all over the kitchen wall. It only applies when the NRA wants to make a bumper sticker.
 
Yes, when you hand a known murderer a weapon and that criminal murders a US citizen (and ATF agent), you are complicit in murder.

Actually, you aren't. You are responsible for giving a gun to someone that you should not have given a gun to, but you are not complicit in murder. While it is unfortunate that an ATF agent was murdered, the person responsible for that is the murderer. I do not believe for a second that the agent would be alive today if Fast and Furious did not exist. Knowing what we know about the Mexican cartels, they are not short on sources of firearms.

I also do not believe it has been established that he was shot by someone using a gun from the program, but that guns from the program were recovered at the scene. There is a difference.


LOL... what does the fact that they are a large trading partner have to do with anything? We deliberately allowed Mexican gangs be provided with assault weapons that killed Mexican citizens. what exactly would you call that?

You're (sometimes) a smart person. You can figure out what the fact that Mexico is la large trading partner has to do with whether the United States government committed an act of war against Mexico.

I'd call it a stupid program.
 
Quite funny given that it was Darla who came on once again just to spaz out and call us hacks and liars. which is doubly funny in that she is the only person I know that has restated my position and then called me a liar for my position.

Then zing Darla, but to make such a general statement is ridiculous.
 
Actually, you aren't. You are responsible for giving a gun to someone that you should not have given a gun to, but you are not complicit in murder. While it is unfortunate that an ATF agent was murdered, the person responsible for that is the murderer. I do not believe for a second that the agent would be alive today if Fast and Furious did not exist. Knowing what we know about the Mexican cartels, they are not short on sources of firearms.

I also do not believe it has been established that he was shot by someone using a gun from the program, but that guns from the program were recovered at the scene. There is a difference.




You're (sometimes) a smart person. You can figure out what the fact that Mexico is la large trading partner has to do with whether the United States government committed an act of war against Mexico.

I'd call it a stupid program.

Amen, a very stupid program.
 
Actually, you aren't. You are responsible for giving a gun to someone that you should not have given a gun to, but you are not complicit in murder. While it is unfortunate that an ATF agent was murdered, the person responsible for that is the murderer. I do not believe for a second that the agent would be alive today if Fast and Furious did not exist. Knowing what we know about the Mexican cartels, they are not short on sources of firearms.

I also do not believe it has been established that he was shot by someone using a gun from the program, but that guns from the program were recovered at the scene. There is a difference.




.

In the real world it has not been established. On Planet Hacktacular not only has that been established, but Eric Holder fired the actual weapon.
 
Then zing Darla, but to make such a general statement is ridiculous.

Yeah, it was a sarcastic comment meant to mock the left and its constant 'Republicans don't like brown people' that we heard over and over and over again anytime the war in Iraq was discussed.
 
In the real world it has not been established. On Planet Hacktacular not only has that been established, but Eric Holder fired the actual weapon.

What hasn't been established Darla? It is a fact that the guns were allowed to 'walk' to Mexican gangs. It is a fact that one of the guns was used to kill Brian Terry.

It is a fact Holder knew about it. There is a lot we don't know, but we know the preceding for certain. Or are you just getting your news from lala land?
 
All hyperbole about Dems not liking Brown people aside, if you know the facts how can you support the administration at all on this. While not even remotely the most corrupt administration in history, this President has lied so many times I don't know how anyone can support him. He distrusted the Patriot Act as Senator Obama, he signed the re-authorization as President Obama. He called raising the debt ceiling irresponsible as Senator, He promised to close GITMO. He continues to use Rendition, Use of FISA warrants are up under his leadership. This guy has carried on so many of the Bush policies I am certain there will be a seat at the Bush family thanksgiving for him and Michelle. Though not a bible thumper, I see a lot of truth in the saying about easier to see the speck in the other guys eye rather than the beam in yours.

Let's stick with this here because there is so much bullshit flying around that introducing other issues is just going to make this impenetrable. And that is the space hacks flourish in.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsme...king_tactics_to_fast_and_furious_concerns.php

What's important is that the hacks' claims that F & F is nothing like the bush era program is complete and utter bullshit. It's the same freaking thing with a new name. Issa has a problem. If Obama wins reelection the repukes are going to impeach him. What few will state is that we are dealing with a revolutionary force that does not abide elections and have been since at least 1998. They are not going to tolerate a two term Obama. But Issa's problem is that in order to prosecute F & F they'd have to air all of Bush's dirty undies, so they put the right wing hack squad to work spreading the story that "its different!!!". And of course Damo and Superfreak, the two biggest hacks on the JPP, are right on board in the impeachment foreplay.

But again, I lived through the 90's, and I also understand the radical party the Republicans have become. They are facists. And you will never find me playing the "Yes I admit it was bad!" game that they want to play. I know the stakes.

I don't give a fuck about F & F and I never will. But I watch the unfolding events leading up to OBama's eventual impeachment with interest. This is assuming the Repukes don't manage to win, or more likely, steal the election.

Mark it down. There will be an impeachment.
 
while it was indeed a stupid program... if another country had done that to us, would we accept that as an answer? 'Oops, sorry about your civilians that were murdered, just a stupid program on our part'

The US has always done things in other countries that we would go to war over if done to us. Think of how many regimes we have helped usher in with sales of guns to the rebels, so please, spare me your false outrage.
 
Let's stick with this here because there is so much bullshit flying around that introducing other issues is just going to make this impenetrable. And that is the space hacks flourish in.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsme...king_tactics_to_fast_and_furious_concerns.php

What's important is that the hacks' claims that F & F is nothing like the bush era program is complete and utter bullshit. It's the same freaking thing with a new name. Issa has a problem. If Obama wins reelection the repukes are going to impeach him. What few will state is that we are dealing with a revolutionary force that does not abide elections and have been since at least 1998. They are not going to tolerate a two term Obama. But Issa's problem is that in order to prosecute F & F they'd have to air all of Bush's dirty undies, so they put the right wing hack squad to work spreading the story that "its different!!!". And of course Damo and Superfreak, the two biggest hacks on the JPP, are right on board in the impeachment foreplay.

But again, I lived through the 90's, and I also understand the radical party the Republicans have become. They are facists. And you will never find me playing the "Yes I admit it was bad!" game that they want to play. I know the stakes.

I don't give a fuck about F & F and I never will. But I watch the unfolding events leading up to OBama's eventual impeachment with interest. This is assuming the Repukes don't manage to win, or more likely, steal the election.

Mark it down. There will be an impeachment.

We can all clearly see who the partisan hack is...

The two programs were similar for certain... but they were not run in the same manner. WR was run in conjunction with Mexican authorities. F&F was not. I know certain political hacks will pretend that doesn't mean anything... but in the real world, we know the truth.
 
The US has always done things in other countries that we would go to war over if done to us. Think of how many regimes we have helped usher in with sales of guns to the rebels, so please, spare me your false outrage.

False outrage? LMAO... I was the one that compared this to Iran Contra... you know... that thing that the left got really really worked up about in the late 80's?

Amazing how far the Obama apologists will go in defending their master.
 
False outrage? LMAO... I was the one that compared this to Iran Contra... you know... that thing that the left got really really worked up about in the late 80's?

Amazing how far the Obama apologists will go in defending their master.

You think I am an Obama apologist? You are truly amusing.
 
Regarding the hacks and liars claims that it has been established that the gun that killed the ATF agent was a F &F gun, that has never been able to be concluded or ruled out.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/27/nation/la-na-fast-furious-fbi-20110727

But "inconclusive" to hacks and liars = IT"S A FACT!

Except you know, it's not.

Our expert hack and liar Darla is trying her very best to distort reality in her vain attempts to apologize for yet another failed Obama program.

The bullet was too badly damaged to get a definite match. that is true. The FACT that two of the assault weapons used in the firefight that killed Agent Terry were 100% proven to be from F&F is what Darla the hack will ignore. Darla the hack will also ignore the innocent Mexicans killed, because she hates brown people.
 
Our expert hack and liar Darla is trying her very best to distort reality in her vain attempts to apologize for yet another failed Obama program.

The bullet was too badly damaged to get a definite match. that is true. The FACT that two of the assault weapons used in the firefight that killed Agent Terry were 100% proven to be from F&F is what Darla the hack will ignore. Darla the hack will also ignore the innocent Mexicans killed, because she hates brown people.

Here is a perfect example of how SF "debates". First of all he knows shit from shinola about almost any subject - he's an instant google expert. He throws out false claims from right wing hack sites and when they are disproven he honestly can't believe it. Because he actually believes that bullshit. So he searches and searches saying "it can't be it can't be" but when his search proves fruitless and he realizes that it can be, he doesn't come back and admit he was wrong. He pretends he was never arguing that in the first place. Thus, SF's original claim about the gun is now inoperable and he's hoping everyone here has an inoperable brain tumor and doesn't remember his original claim. But here it is:

"What hasn't been established Darla? It is a fact that the guns were allowed to 'walk' to Mexican gangs. It is a fact that one of the guns was used to kill Brian Terry."

Except as now even the hack himself has to admit, it is not a fact. Not a fact at all. Instead of owning this, he is on another emo rant about brown people.
 
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