Obama Apology Tour

Ice Dancer said:
I guess the fact that in all of our early archetecture from Capital buildings to Court houses to Schools and even public parks that references to the Christian faith was just a mask for the Enlightenment Age as well? A cloak and dagger sort of protection against pursecution by the religious. That all these men who shaped our nation only pretended to believe in God.
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Irrelevent. Please stay on topic.
 
TuTu Monroe said:
You get to decide what's relevant and what's not? Wow, pompous little fella, aren't you?
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And you must have ADD. Have you even read the threads? Did you understand them? Cause if you did you would understand that my comment was not a criticism but a statement of fact.

You may be incapable of objectivity but I will hold your feet to the fire.

Try not to be such a light weight.
 
Damocles said:
In what way? Notice the P in Providence was capitalized? It is direct reference to a more generic version of the Creator.

Deists usually do not name the Creator, they don't believe that He really is that benevolent and interfering type of God you get in the Bible.
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Then why would Washington pray?
 
Ice Dancer said:
No, it was sarcastic reflection on your failed ability to dismiss the philisophical realities of religious faith and influence over our founding documents.
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I have done no such thing. I debated what were the primary guiding ideals of our founding fathers and many of those ideals were antithetical to Christianity as it stood at that time. That's a fact. I did not say that christian religion did or did not profoundly influence our founding fathers.

Who's to say what "ALL" influeces that our founding fathers had and that religion did or did not profoundly influence them. That's not the point. The point is, is that our founding fathers, even the faithful christian ones, purposefully designed a secular government. They had good reason for that, and they were wise, and that it was a dramatic departure from traditional christian governments of that time. This is no way discredits Christianity nor is it meant too. It's an observation of the historical events.
 
Ice Dancer said:
No, it was sarcastic reflection on your failed ability to dismiss the philisophical realities of religious faith and influence over our founding documents.
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There is no doubt christianity had a profound effect on our founding fathers. No one has ever tried to say it didn't.

The question was whether we were founded as a christian nation. Its clear we were not.
 
WinterBorn said:
There is no doubt christianity had a profound effect on our founding fathers. No one has ever tried to say it didn't.

The question was whether we were founded as a christian nation. Its clear we were not.
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Not so fricking clear at all solitary...NOW please actually read the following.


WAS THE UNITED STATES FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recently, many authors have debated whether or not the United States of America was founded as a Christian nation. I wish to provide a few historical quotes from our Founding Era that lend credence to the supposition that we indeed were founded as a Christian nation.

Granted, God is not mentioned in the Constitution, but He is mentioned in every major document leading up to the final wording of the Constitution. For example, Connecticut is still known as the "Constitution State" because its colonial constitution was used as a model for the United States Constitution. Its first words were: "For as much as it has pleased the almighty God by the wise disposition of His Divine Providence…"

Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians. The first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in Christian prayer, which ended in these words: "...the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen". Sounds Christian to me.

Ben Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, said: "...God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"

John Adams stated so eloquently during this period of time that; "The general principles on which the fathers achieved Independence were ... the general principles of Christianity ... I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that the general principles of Christianity are as etemal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

Later, John Quincy Adams answered the question as to why, next to Christmas, was the Fourth of July this most joyous and venerated day in the United States. He answered: "...Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?" Sounds like the founding of a Christian nation to me. John Quincy Adams went on to say that the biggest victory won in the American Revolution was that Christian principles and civil government would be tied together In what he called an "indissoluble" bond. The Founding Fathers understood that religion was inextricably part of our nation and government. The practice of the Christian religion in our government was not only welcomed but encouraged.

The intent of the First Amendment was well understood during the founding of our country. The First Amendment was not to keep religion out of government. It was to keep Government from establishing a 'National Denomination" (like the Church of England). As early as 1799 a court declared: "By our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing." Even in the letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Baptists of Danbury Connecticut (from which we derive the term "separation of Church and State") he made it quite clear that the wall of separation was to insure that Government would never interfere with religious activities because religious freedom came from God, not from Government.

Even George Washington who certainly knew the intent of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, since he presided over their formation, said in his "Farewell Address": "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars." Sure doesn't sound like Washington was trying to separate religion and politics.

John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, and one of the three men most responsible for the writing of the Constitution declared:

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty-as well as privilege and interest- of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." Still sounds like the Founding Fathers knew this was a Christian nation.

This view, that we were a Christian nation, was hold for almost 150 years until the Everson v. Board of Education ruling in 1947. Before that momentous ruling, even the Supreme Court knew that we were a Christian nation. In 1892 the Court stated:

"No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people...This is a Christian nation." There it is again! From the Supreme Court of the United States. This court went on to cite 87 precedents (prior actions, words, and rulings) to conclude that this was a "Christian nation".

In 1854, the House Judiciary Committee said: "in this age, there is no substitute for Christianity...That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.'

It should be noted here that even as late as 1958 a dissenting judge warned in Baer v. Kolmorgen that if the court did not stop talking about the "separation of Church and State", people were going to start thinking it was part of the Constitution.

It has been demonstrated in their own words: Ben Franklin, George Washington and John Adams, to the House of Representatives and the Supreme Court, how our founding fathers felt about the mix of politics and religion.

When we read articles such as "What's God got to do with it?" (Primack, 5/4) and "The wall between state and church must not be breached" (Tager, 5/7) it just reaffirms how little, even intelligent people, understand about the founding of our great Republic. To say that this nation was not founded as a Christian nation or that the Constitution was not founded on Christian principles is totally at odds with the facts of history.

Tex Browning
 
Ice Dancer said:
Not so fricking clear at all solitary...NOW please actually read the following.


WAS THE UNITED STATES FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recently, many authors have debated whether or not the United States of America was founded as a Christian nation. I wish to provide a few historical quotes from our Founding Era that lend credence to the supposition that we indeed were founded as a Christian nation.

Granted, God is not mentioned in the Constitution, but He is mentioned in every major document leading up to the final wording of the Constitution. For example, Connecticut is still known as the "Constitution State" because its colonial constitution was used as a model for the United States Constitution. Its first words were: "For as much as it has pleased the almighty God by the wise disposition of His Divine Providence…"

Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians. The first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in Christian prayer, which ended in these words: "...the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen". Sounds Christian to me.

Ben Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, said: "...God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"

John Adams stated so eloquently during this period of time that; "The general principles on which the fathers achieved Independence were ... the general principles of Christianity ... I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that the general principles of Christianity are as etemal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

Later, John Quincy Adams answered the question as to why, next to Christmas, was the Fourth of July this most joyous and venerated day in the United States. He answered: "...Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?" Sounds like the founding of a Christian nation to me. John Quincy Adams went on to say that the biggest victory won in the American Revolution was that Christian principles and civil government would be tied together In what he called an "indissoluble" bond. The Founding Fathers understood that religion was inextricably part of our nation and government. The practice of the Christian religion in our government was not only welcomed but encouraged.

The intent of the First Amendment was well understood during the founding of our country. The First Amendment was not to keep religion out of government. It was to keep Government from establishing a 'National Denomination" (like the Church of England). As early as 1799 a court declared: "By our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing." Even in the letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Baptists of Danbury Connecticut (from which we derive the term "separation of Church and State") he made it quite clear that the wall of separation was to insure that Government would never interfere with religious activities because religious freedom came from God, not from Government.

Even George Washington who certainly knew the intent of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, since he presided over their formation, said in his "Farewell Address": "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars." Sure doesn't sound like Washington was trying to separate religion and politics.

John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, and one of the three men most responsible for the writing of the Constitution declared:

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty-as well as privilege and interest- of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." Still sounds like the Founding Fathers knew this was a Christian nation.

This view, that we were a Christian nation, was hold for almost 150 years until the Everson v. Board of Education ruling in 1947. Before that momentous ruling, even the Supreme Court knew that we were a Christian nation. In 1892 the Court stated:

"No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people...This is a Christian nation." There it is again! From the Supreme Court of the United States. This court went on to cite 87 precedents (prior actions, words, and rulings) to conclude that this was a "Christian nation".

In 1854, the House Judiciary Committee said: "in this age, there is no substitute for Christianity...That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.'

It should be noted here that even as late as 1958 a dissenting judge warned in Baer v. Kolmorgen that if the court did not stop talking about the "separation of Church and State", people were going to start thinking it was part of the Constitution.

It has been demonstrated in their own words: Ben Franklin, George Washington and John Adams, to the House of Representatives and the Supreme Court, how our founding fathers felt about the mix of politics and religion.

When we read articles such as "What's God got to do with it?" (Primack, 5/4) and "The wall between state and church must not be breached" (Tager, 5/7) it just reaffirms how little, even intelligent people, understand about the founding of our great Republic. To say that this nation was not founded as a Christian nation or that the Constitution was not founded on Christian principles is totally at odds with the facts of history.

Tex Browning
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It has been amply shown that the founding fathers expressed that they did not found a christian nation. Plenty of quotes from their private correspondence has shown they either placed little faith in the ability of christianity to be fair or expressed outright disbelief and disgust with christianity.

Yes there were a handful of mentions of god in documents leading up to the Constitution. But they did not spell out christianity expressly. And everything else is spelled out in detail.

The Treaty of Tripoli spelled out that we are not a christian nation. And the treaty was read aloud on the floor of the senate and no objections were registered. Whether the treaty was rewritten 8 years later does not matter. The fact that the senate accepted a document that said that in those exact words says far more than the second treaty.

And if we were founded as a christian nation why would the 1st amendment exist? What religion has ever said that freedom of religion and freedom of speech were important? Our founding fathers put effort into creating a nation that was secular not christian.
 
A previous post in this thread speaks to what the founding fathers were trying to avoid.

"The fact is that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, deists, atheists and other faiths should be damn glad that the US is a Christan nation and therefore has the tolerance for them."

That is why they founded a secular nation so they could avoid the pitfalls of other nations such as England.
 
WinterBorn said:
It has been amply shown that the founding fathers expressed that they did not found a christian nation. Plenty of quotes from their private correspondence has shown they either placed little faith in the ability of christianity to be fair or expressed outright disbelief and disgust with christianity.

Yes there were a handful of mentions of god in documents leading up to the Constitution. But they did not spell out christianity expressly. And everything else is spelled out in detail.

The Treaty of Tripoli spelled out that we are not a christian nation. And the treaty was read aloud on the floor of the senate and no objections were registered. Whether the treaty was rewritten 8 years later does not matter. The fact that the senate accepted a document that said that in those exact words says far more than the second treaty.

And if we were founded as a christian nation why would the 1st amendment exist? What religion has ever said that freedom of religion and freedom of speech were important? Our founding fathers put effort into creating a nation that was secular not christian.
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Nothing has been shown by the private correspondences about a very public matter. Whne people of faith struggle with belief it is often expressed in private correspondences. The Tripoli Treaty was a negotiation for a cease and desist of our economic survival...The OVERWHELMING evidence as to the underpining of what specific religious belief in made clear in numerous writings and speeches. That belief was in God, the Christian God.

I have never said that the government was not a secular government, only that it is a secular (non-church state) government whose foundation was born in the breasts of Christian men and of men who shared a belief in a creator.
 
Ice Dancer said:
No, it was sarcastic reflection on your failed ability to dismiss the philisophical realities of religious faith and influence over our founding documents.
Click to expand...
No and your off topic and throwing out ad hominin attacks cause you have no substantive rebuttal to the facts I've laid out.
 
Ice Dancer said:
Not so fricking clear at all solitary...NOW please actually read the following.


WAS THE UNITED STATES FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recently, many authors have debated whether or not the United States of America was founded as a Christian nation. I wish to provide a few historical quotes from our Founding Era that lend credence to the supposition that we indeed were founded as a Christian nation.

Granted, God is not mentioned in the Constitution, but He is mentioned in every major document leading up to the final wording of the Constitution. For example, Connecticut is still known as the "Constitution State" because its colonial constitution was used as a model for the United States Constitution. Its first words were: "For as much as it has pleased the almighty God by the wise disposition of His Divine Providence…"

Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians. The first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in Christian prayer, which ended in these words: "...the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen". Sounds Christian to me.

Ben Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, said: "...God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"

John Adams stated so eloquently during this period of time that; "The general principles on which the fathers achieved Independence were ... the general principles of Christianity ... I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that the general principles of Christianity are as etemal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."

Later, John Quincy Adams answered the question as to why, next to Christmas, was the Fourth of July this most joyous and venerated day in the United States. He answered: "...Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?" Sounds like the founding of a Christian nation to me. John Quincy Adams went on to say that the biggest victory won in the American Revolution was that Christian principles and civil government would be tied together In what he called an "indissoluble" bond. The Founding Fathers understood that religion was inextricably part of our nation and government. The practice of the Christian religion in our government was not only welcomed but encouraged.

The intent of the First Amendment was well understood during the founding of our country. The First Amendment was not to keep religion out of government. It was to keep Government from establishing a 'National Denomination" (like the Church of England). As early as 1799 a court declared: "By our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing." Even in the letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Baptists of Danbury Connecticut (from which we derive the term "separation of Church and State") he made it quite clear that the wall of separation was to insure that Government would never interfere with religious activities because religious freedom came from God, not from Government.

Even George Washington who certainly knew the intent of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, since he presided over their formation, said in his "Farewell Address": "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars." Sure doesn't sound like Washington was trying to separate religion and politics.

John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, and one of the three men most responsible for the writing of the Constitution declared:

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty-as well as privilege and interest- of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." Still sounds like the Founding Fathers knew this was a Christian nation.

This view, that we were a Christian nation, was hold for almost 150 years until the Everson v. Board of Education ruling in 1947. Before that momentous ruling, even the Supreme Court knew that we were a Christian nation. In 1892 the Court stated:

"No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people...This is a Christian nation." There it is again! From the Supreme Court of the United States. This court went on to cite 87 precedents (prior actions, words, and rulings) to conclude that this was a "Christian nation".

In 1854, the House Judiciary Committee said: "in this age, there is no substitute for Christianity...That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.'

It should be noted here that even as late as 1958 a dissenting judge warned in Baer v. Kolmorgen that if the court did not stop talking about the "separation of Church and State", people were going to start thinking it was part of the Constitution.

It has been demonstrated in their own words: Ben Franklin, George Washington and John Adams, to the House of Representatives and the Supreme Court, how our founding fathers felt about the mix of politics and religion.

When we read articles such as "What's God got to do with it?" (Primack, 5/4) and "The wall between state and church must not be breached" (Tager, 5/7) it just reaffirms how little, even intelligent people, understand about the founding of our great Republic. To say that this nation was not founded as a Christian nation or that the Constitution was not founded on Christian principles is totally at odds with the facts of history.

Tex Browning
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Damn you're like Dixie. All that verbage and you've only provided evidence that our founding fathers believed in God. You didn't provide any evidence that it was Christianity that they believed in nor did you address the point at all that our founding fathers specifically designed a secular government. You've provided absolutely no evidence to counter that point at all. Only evidence that they believed in God.
 
Ice Dancer said:
Nothing has been shown by the private correspondences about a very public matter. Whne people of faith struggle with belief it is often expressed in private correspondences. The Tripoli Treaty was a negotiation for a cease and desist of our economic survival...The OVERWHELMING evidence as to the underpining of what specific religious belief in made clear in numerous writings and speeches. That belief was in God, the Christian God.

I have never said that the government was not a secular government, only that it is a secular (non-church state) government whose foundation was born in the breasts of Christian men and of men who shared a belief in a creator.
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Site us specific evidence of that foundation from the Constitution.
 
The difference in stupid between Ice Dancer or USFREEDOM911 and Dixie is the difference between murder and manslaughter. Ice Dancer and USFREEDOM are stupid by accident and without knowing it, whereas Dixie's stupid intentionally and in a way that is probably premeditated.
 
ib1yysguy said:
The difference in stupid between Ice Dancer or USFREEDOM911 and Dixie is the difference between murder and manslaughter. Ice Dancer and USFREEDOM are stupid by accident and without knowing it, whereas Dixie's stupid intentionally and in a way that is probably premeditated.
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I have my doubts.
 
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