Oil demand growth is set to significantly slow by 2028 thanks to the use of more EVs.
- Thread starter Joe Capitalist
- Start date
Into the Night
Verified User
Maybe he'll get one of these. Only have to pedal for 20 something hours to charge your car...
Note: This doesn't require a petroleum product, produces no pollution, and would be the only acceptable means when it's a nice calm night...
More like several weeks. These don't put out that much. Of course, he can do it from all the energy you get from those veggie burgers he eats.
Joe Capitalist
Racism is a disease
Today, 12:34 PM
T. A. Gardner
Truth Killer
This message is hidden because T. A. Gardner is on your ignore list.
Today, 03:12 PM
Into the Night
Verified Loser
This message is hidden because Into the Night is on your ignore list.
T. A. Gardner
Truth Killer
This message is hidden because T. A. Gardner is on your ignore list.
Today, 03:12 PM
Into the Night
Verified Loser
This message is hidden because Into the Night is on your ignore list.
Maybe he'll get one of these. Only have to pedal for 20 something hours to charge your car...
Note: This doesn't require a petroleum product, produces no pollution, and would be the only acceptable means when it's a nice calm night...
You cannot buy gas either since stations run on electricity.
serendipity
Verified User
The Feds are applying for a 20 year extension.
https://calmatters.org/environment/2023/03/diablo-canyon-nuclear-power-plant/
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
I have a large contractor generator. I could power up the gas station to pump the gas I need.
QP!
Verified User
wrong.
Solar and Wind and other renewables coupled with the breakthroughs in Solid State batteries built on Sodium Ion and not lithium has all the promise of being a game changer in this area.
(this is where you crap on any NEW science as 'wishcasting' that should not be pursued).
If battery tech continues to evolve without the need of rare earth materials then the limitations on them for mass volume production are largely removed.
What you will see, in the future, is every home built with a battery wall in its garage or basement. Enough capacity to capture from solar and wind, the houses needs for most of the active hours of the day, and attached to a Smart Grid, that can shift capacity up and down stream thru a Smart Utility company.
This will also prevent the types of peek use collapse and shutdown you see in Texas and other areas during peak time high stress days, as those areas can be shut down from the grid and allowed to utilize their own batteries for a few hours to alleviate the draw, with other power being ported in from lower use areas.
As always you speak as if nothing can change or improve in the future which is why you have argued ICE cars should never have existed nor roads, as what you call all 'wish casting'. Pushing technology before it is proven instead of sticking to what was proven (horse and buggy).
History has proved you wrong as will the future.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
No, this is where I crap on idiots like you for not understanding the needs of the electrical system as a whole and not taking into account the vagaries of solar and wind. Because these are so variable, they can't be used for base loading nor can they be relied on without masses of back up generation systems. I've been over this repeatedly.
A single larger nuclear generation plant completely overwhelms solar with lower costs and greater reliability. Solar can't even begin to compete. I don't care if the panels are free and the batteries get down to the point where they're a third of the cost per KWH they are now ($225 on average so that would be $75). Simply the amount needed is so staggeringly massive that it isn't cost effective and doesn't even come close.
As Germany has shown, a "smart grid" isn't and it is exorbitantly expensive to the point it is unaffordable. Germany, roughly the size of Texas has already spent over $50 billion on it and it costs nearly $4 billion a year to operate. It wouldn't even be necessary with stable, reliable sources of generation.
Do you think that is an argument? That was meaningless. Perhaps you believe a blackout is nothing, if it does not affect you. You are not dragging a huge generator to a gas station and filling up. When the power goes out, they close up and go home.
I wonder why you think that was a real argument.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
Why not? I haul it around in my truck to job sites pretty regularly. It has a 5-ish gallon tank and runs for about 8 hours full load on that. If the station will let me power them up, I can pump gas.
After all, if I have no site power because of what I'm doing I need it there--with an extra 5 gallon gas can--to power my equipment.
QP!
Verified User
Dude you are the one who believes ICE vehicles and roads should never have been a thing as they were wish casting before being proven and they should have stuck to horse and buggy.
Vagaries of Solar and WInd stop being vagaries when you can capture and store it when needed as an augment or supplement to the other power systems in place.
It is not about 100% anything and is about a MIX of power generation solutions of which Solar and wind can play a HUGE part.
Decentralizing the grid and making EVERY home a small producer massively derisks the grid as opposed to singular fail point mass producers. But that does not mean you will not still have mass producers, as you will, but as with Texas failure which was based around a few communities over loading the grid, if you instead had homes with their own back up power (minimum 24 hours?) based on battery walls, solar and wind capture, you would have avoided that entire collapse.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
That's an outright bullshit lie. The internal combustion engine saved the horse. Prior to its introduction, millions of horses died yearly worldwide often worked to death. Cities had issues removing the hundreds of tons of horse shit from their streets. Those same cities were plagued with disease and pestilence from that manure.
You can't afford the storage. Not now, not ever.
Solar and wind are a waste of time and resources.
It makes the grid unmanageable and far more costly. Home solar systems in the grand scheme of things are a meaningless gesture and waste of time.
QP!
Verified User
Sure it did. But that was NOT your point.
Your point was to MAKE FUN IT as wishcasting and that anyone would pursue it before it was proven to work and before it was proven it would be adopted.
Your very position is to mock science/progress that pursues things not proven today to work and that they cannot prove today that people will adopt it.
I already know of homes with battery walls and that is the older, more expensive technology, so as ALWAYS you are wrong. If home builders spec it in to all new home builds, it will be a rounding error on the cost of a new home and pay for itself with electricity they will be able to sell back to the grid, over the lifetime.
So were cars according to you.
You are wrong as always. A combination of decentralized grid (homes generating much of their own power) supported by big utilities is the future.
SmarterthanYou
rebel
EVs will continue to be nothing more than a 'FAD' getting sported by elites and 'enlightened' idiots. Demolition Man is just a movie, not a guidebook for the future.
Into the Night
Verified User
Heh. Time will tell if that actually happens.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
A home solar installation, including labor, runs somewhere around $40 to $60,000 depending on the size of the array. A battery wall is an extra $10 grand. That isn't a "rounding" error. Then the whole thing is only going to last about 20 years, give or take. So the house costs more, then like other household appliances, you have to replace the system periodically. All it means is you are paying for 20 something years of electricity on your mortgage instead of to the utility company.
Decentralization is not a good idea when it comes to electrical power any more than Edison's idea that the grid should run on DC electricity.
QP!
Verified User
Do you know why there was a slow initial transition from Out Houses to putting toilets in every home?
It was because everything about Toilets was expensive, as a new technology, not yet enjoying mass production and scale benefits, but once they started going in every home, those costs came down.
Check out Henry Ford and the auto revolution, and mass production to understand the same dynamic.
This is exactly the same mistake you always make. You always look at EVERY SINGLE new advancement and technology and say 'IT IS NOT PROFITABLE TODAY' and thus should not be pursued as you are completely incapable of understanding that as technology is mass produced not only do costs come down, but the technology improves and improves, thus also bringing down costs.
i say again why you specifically argue against autos replacing Horse and buggy and Bridges and roads being built to create connected roads and highways. Your constant claim to rail against them as not yet proven and thus should not be done.
No one, who is smart wants to live in your world of zero advancement and sticking to only what is proven. it is foolish.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
An irrelevant comparison. Ending the use of outhouses and septic systems had significant health benefits to a city. Ford's innovation of a moving assembly line didn't require a government fiat.
On the other hand, solar is not going to get much better than it is today in terms of electrical generation. The panels won't get much cheaper either. Installation costs will still be significant. Homes will still have to be hooked up to a grid or have a secondary means of generation like a gas-powered generator for times when solar isn't producing power. That means you are still duplicating generation systems at great cost and inefficiency.
Outside of the dubious claims about ridding the planet of anthropogenic CO2 emissions, solar has NOTHING to recommend it as a generation system. It's that bad. Wind is a bit better, but it too really isn't worth the trouble.
To use your horse and buggy analogy, solar and wind are akin to keeping the horse and buggy while everyone has an automobile.
Into the Night
Verified User
No. He's right. YOUR are wrong.
Li-ion is a solid state battery and has been for 40 years, so you can drop that 'breakthrough' right now.
Now let's discuss the sodium based battery:
Sodium has a lower electron potential than lithium (only 2.71 compared to Lithium 3.04). This reduces the available capacity of joules available per mole of sodium in a battery. In other words, for a battery with the same number of atoms in it, sodium has lower capacity. Sodium batteries are almost four times heavier than their Li-ion counterparts as well. This will make the car too heavy. A 50Mj Li-ion battery pack weighs half a ton. A 50Mj Na-ion battery pack will weigh 2 tons.
Sodium metal also doesn't occur naturally. It is very expensive to synthesize from something like sodium chloride (common salt), with electrolysis being the favored method (consuming vast amounts of electricity to do it). Sodium metal is also much more reactive than Lithium when exposed to water or even water vapor, making this battery FAR MORE DANGEROUS than any Li-ion battery (which ALREADY have problems with fire!). Sodium has a greater fire hazard rating than lithium. Exposure to water or water vapor causes fire at room temperature! Watch out for those hot humid days!
Like any battery, it must be charged. Where are you going to get the power from? Solar and wind are piddle power. They can't do it. Solar is also the most expensive method of producing power there is, with wind being the 2nd most expensive method.
After 2035, when semi-trucks using diesel fuel are banned, how is California going to install or maintain any wind or solar plant? There no practical EV trucks.
This is not new science. There is no science here. Engineering is not science. THIS proposed engineering is stupid, for the reasons I just described.
Sodium is MUCH rarer than lithium. ALL of it must be manufactured, using tremendous amounts of energy to manufacture in the quantity needed. It is also MUCH MORE dangerous to handle and creates a much more dangerous battery.
Such a house will never meet building code. Fire hazard. I suggest you go study the building codes including structural, fire, plumbing, HVAC, and electrical codes. Those codes are there for a reason.
Smart utility companies buy their power from reliable sources that are easily ramped up or down as loads change. They buy from sources that are cheapest. Solar and wind ain't it. They can neither be ramped up or down on demand, they are unreliable, and they are VERY expensive sources of electric power. Remember, power utilities purchase power by the watt.
Texas has never sustained a collapse of it's power grid. California is well on it's way there, though. Being part of the WRIC, they now import almost all their power. Those lines are seriously overloaded now. The WRIC will not sacrifice itself to save California. It will shed the load. California goes dark.
California already suffers rolling blackouts due to poor power generating capacity. If an overloaded power line touches a tree or something, that could set off a chain reaction in the grid. WRIC will disconnect California to save itself. California goes dark. Not rolling blackouts...BLACKOUT.
Charging batteries means that power is not available for use elsewhere. At best you get a few hours from the batteries before they are discharged. Remember you can't charge a battery with solar power at night. You cannot charge a battery with wind power unless the wind is within a narrow range of windspeed and there are no icing conditions (wind generators cannot run in icing conditions).
ICE cars have undergone dramatic improvement. Far more than EVs. In just the last decade, for example, better materials have come available for gaskets, engine casings (what you call the 'block'), improvements in sensor designs (now there are sensors that monitor your tire pressure in a rotating wheel!). Further, since the Li-ion battery was invented in the 80s', ICE cars have completely replaced that old carburetor with FADEC designs, vastly improving mileage and producing a much cleaner burn, producing little more than CO2 and water for the exhaust. EGR systems have essentially eliminated NOx gas formation during the burn, and the smog that comes with it. Even L.A. is basically free of smog now, suffering only marine haze and dust storms primarily. Nothing like the stuff in the 70's that you could cut with a butter knife.
Ahhh...the old 'horse and buggy' argument..*yawn*.
ICE cars ARE pushing technology. EVs aren't. They've been using the same battery developed 40 years ago and cage rotor motors developed 50 years ago. The cars are spiffier looking, but that's about it. They tend to be shoddy and have poor handling characteristics due to their excessive weight (Na-ion batteries will make that FAR worse!).
Blatant lie. History favors the gasoline car and has for a long time. Currently, less than 1% of the cars on the road are EVs. Those gasoline cars are using latest technology. The EVs aren't. All that's happened to the EV is just bigger and bigger battery packs (some vehicles now sport 150Mj packs, weighing over 2 tons).
It's about power to weight ratio. That's why you don't see a lot of people buying into the EV, and why you don't see practical electric powered aircraft.
Gasoline engines are light, use a renewable fuel (that's actually pretty cheap once you take all the fucking taxes, restrictions, and overregulation away!), are easy to maintain using commonly available tools, and new ICE cars require no more maintenance than new EVs. Gasoline engines are cheaper, more efficient (using about half the energy of an EV to go the same distance for the same sized car), lighter (reducing road wear and making it practical for aircraft), and because of the FADEC design these engines now use, are self adjusting, self monitoring, self diagnosing of developing problems, provide free cabin heat in winter (EVs use the battery, seriously reducing range), and have an infinite practical range (gasoline engines don't need hours to charge!).
Worried about maintenance?? It takes me a whopping ten minutes once or twice a year to change my engine oil. The used engine oil is cleaned and sold again as useful engine oil (some people heat their homes or garages with it!).
I can (and do) fix my own car if it happens to develop a problem (rare, since I take care of my cars) using my own tools, which are commonly available. Can't do THAT with an EV! They require dealer repair only! EXPENSIVE!
It only takes me a few minutes once a week to refuel my car. EV drivers are constantly worried about recharging their car. It's like watching a neurosis.
A Tesla Model 3 cannot tow anything. A Subaru Impreza, a car of similar size, can easily tow a loaded utility trailer (capable of carrying a riding mower), and costs 1/3 that of the Model 3.
I can also refuel a gasoline engine from a gas can. Can't do THAT with an EV!
People also go 'muddin' with gasoline engines. Can't do THAT with an EV!
Horses and buggies, BTW, are still used...mostly in tourist areas, and the horse has to wear diapers. Talk about city pollution! Horses were generally banned from cities because of the stench. Gasoline cars really took care of THAT problem! There are the Amish too, that still use them for daily transport. They tend to stay out of the cities and stay in their own communities. Cities don't want horses for serious practical reasons.
QP!
Verified User
lol at you not understanding climate change has major ramifications for health.