On The 'Islamofascism' Misnomer...

If one was to apply the term to Hizbollah, yes, it does not fit. But to Al Qaeda... You are wrong, it fits.

It fits both, it also fits for the Iranian and Syrian leadership.
 
These people are not traditionally Islamic and they are not traditionally Fascist. They have perverted Islam, they are as "Muslim" as the Ku Klux Klan is "Christian."

Ah, the 'no true scotsman' defence...lol

So if a section of a religion are deemed to have perverted an original religion, they are no longer a religion?

Are protestants therefore not religious, given their pervertion of the Catholic faith?
 
It fits both, it also fits for the Iranian and Syrian leadership.

Dixie, what do you consider the defining characteristics that constitute 'fascism'?
 
So if a section of a religion are deemed to have perverted an original religion, they are no longer a religion?

Not in all cases, and that's not what I stated. I gave the example of the KKK, they perverted Christian dogma to perpetrate acts of terror, but are they looked upon as a "Christian theocratic movement"? Of course not.

No one has "deemed" they've perverted the Islamic faith, they simply HAVE! It's a fact, not an opinion.
 
by the way...the Caliphate has never been envisioned as "worldwide" but only encompassing the area that roughly approximates the reach of Islam in its flower.... i.e. Spain, south around the Mediterranean littoral, the Balkans, the middle east to the Indian Ocean... Al Qaeda has no designs on establishing an Islamic caliphate in North or South America or Northern Europe or China, for example

Rubbish. That it it's establishment. It is believed, and they work towards, the entire planet will convert to Islam and be ruled by this Caliphate. To say otherwise implies ignorance that I know doesn't exist for you. Therefore it must be deliberate that you only look to the immediate rather than the fulfillment of the planning.
 
If a definition fits, it fits regardless of who or how they are using it. My argument has been from the beginning that this would be an accurate description of Al Qaeda.

Ok, that's what I wanted to establish.

So if AQ et al are Islamofascists, would you agree that this indicates that they are fascists, the distinguishing characteristic from other fascists being their Islamic faith?
It indicates that they are Islamic Nationalists working toward world domination. Your way the word would more fit if Fascism were the more important of the word placement... FascismoIslamism maybe? Pontificating on whether it means that the only thing that separates them from other fascists is their religion... Okay. I can live with that. It makes the word more precise...
 
It indicates that they are Islamic Nationalists working toward world domination

If this is the case and, for sake of argument, these Islamists can be deemed nationalist, wouldn't you consider a better description to be Islamonationalists?

Your way the word would more fit if Fascism were the more important of the word placement... FascismoIslamism maybe?

Would it make a difference? It still contains the elements that these are fascists and Islamic.

Pontificating on whether it means that the only thing that separates them from other fascists is their religion... Okay. I can live with that. It makes the word more precise...

Ok. We can state that Islamofascism indictates that they are fascists, seperated from other fascists by their Islamic faith.

What are the defining characteristics that you consider are essential for something / one to be deemed fascist?
 
Dictatorial oppression, domination by brutal force, bigoted ideology with no room for dissent or freedom.

Ok, so what differentiates fascism from other ideologies that fit this description?

Soviet Communism, Monarchies and Theocracies amongst others all fit this description and aren't fascism.
 
It indicates that they are Islamic Nationalists working toward world domination

If this is the case and, for sake of argument, these Islamists can be deemed nationalist, wouldn't you consider a better description to be Islamonationalists?

Your way the word would more fit if Fascism were the more important of the word placement... FascismoIslamism maybe?

Would it make a difference? It still contains the elements that these are fascists and Islamic.

Pontificating on whether it means that the only thing that separates them from other fascists is their religion... Okay. I can live with that. It makes the word more precise...

Ok. We can state that Islamofascism indictates that they are fascists, seperated from other fascists by their Islamic faith.

What are the defining characteristics that you consider are essential for something / one to be deemed fascist?

Only if their nationalism was their only defining factor would IslamoNationalists be as precise. Of couse, it is not. Their nationalism is not the only determination... However it is inclusive in Fascism.

I think you are being deliberately obtuse because you don't like that the term does fit in this case. Even when Bush uses the term it still fits. I think that you attempt to desperately nitpick it away because any valid point from the other side somehow makes you less in your mind...

I personally think they stumbled upon a reasonably accurate word while creating propaganda. I think it sometimes happens that propaganda is accurate.... I don't think I am less because I can recognize a good turn of phrase even when somebody I don't like uses it.
 
I think you are being deliberately obtuse because you don't like that the term does fit in this case.

Lets not count the chickens before they have hatched.

Only if their nationalism was their only defining factor would IslamoNationalists be as precise. Of couse, it is not. Their nationalism is not the only determination... However it is inclusive in Fascism.

So you agree that nationalism is required for fascism to differentiate it from other oppressive, totalitarian, dictatorial ideologies?
 
I think you are being deliberately obtuse because you don't like that the term does fit in this case.

Lets not count the chickens before they have hatched.

Only if their nationalism was their only defining factor would IslamoNationalists be as precise. Of couse, it is not. Their nationalism is not the only determination... However it is inclusive in Fascism.

So you agree that nationalism is required for fascism to differentiate it from other oppressive, totalitarian, dictatorial ideologies?
Look. Don't confuse me with Dixie. I have previously and multiple times explained their nationalism. You are now attempting once again to pretend it hasn't happened by simply ignoring the counterpoint to your inane argument that they have no aspect of nationalism among them.

I am not going to let you once again use this deliberate obtuse argument that so clearly points out that you don't read dissenting opinion before posting more gibberish.
 
I have made it clear that I think they are fascist, I have explained how I believe it fits, I have shown what I believe to be strong nationalistic views in their beliefs and political stance that does include theocracy...

You have simply repeated the same inane rubbish... "They aren't nationalist therefore can't be fascist..." without once remarking with counterpoint. You just ignore the points I make to repeat the same gibberish because it doesn't fit with what you want to hear. You just assume I make the same argument as another poster because you clearly and deliberately don't actually read points made by opposing views to yours.
 
You have in no way discounted my explanation of how their political/religious belief does fit within the definition of fascism as well as the all-important (only to you) definition of nationalism. All you have done is repeat ad nauseam the same argument hoping people will start believing you because you say it often enough.
 
You have in no way discounted my explanation of how their political/religious belief does fit within the definition of fascism as well as the all-important (only to you) definition of nationalism.

I'm coming to that. Have patience Damo...

Look. Don't confuse me with Dixie. I have previously and multiple times explained their nationalism. You are now attempting once again to pretend it hasn't happened by simply ignoring the counterpoint to your inane argument that they have no aspect of nationalism among them.

I'm just asking questions....

You do then agree that nationalism is a requirement to be deemed fascist?

Whether they are nationalist we can discuss later.
 
No, I don't think it is a requirement, as "typically" is not the same as saying that it is always present. I do, however, believe that it is present here.
 
Now get to countering points made. Restating the same question again is making this thread boring.
 
This is fun being all belligerent and stuffs...

Yes, it is. Have you worked out that I am pedantic yet... lol

No, I don't think it is a requirement, as "typically" is not the same as saying that it is always present. I do, however, believe that it is present here.

Ok, so what differentiates fascism from other oppressive, dictatorial, totalitarian etc ideologies?
 
Many diverse regimes have self-identified as fascist and therefore the defining of fascism is more complicated and contentious than you are implying.

Historians, political scientists, and other scholars have engaged in this very debate. The debate concerning the exact nature of fascism and its core tenets has still not completed and is therefore more complicated than you are pretending that it is by assuming one definition and adjusting all other remarks around that one definition.

Mirriam-Webster defines fascism as:

"a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"[1].

It is not hard to expand this to include religion as well as "race", each are equally social constructs and create well-defined lines. The nation that they exalt above the individual is clearly the caliphate...

One thing to particularly note, although this group does promote world expansion, it is not necessary to be fascist to also be Empire Builders...

Now another definition, a more recent one from a political scientist:

"Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." - Robert O. Paxton

This one also fits if one concerns themselves with the fact that a Theocratic government is also a political movement and that centralizing it and expanding it throughout even just the Muslim world fits the expansionist nature of the movement....

We'll begin there.

Do you recognize that even the OED is not the definitive defining factor for a term argued over decades that as yet has not real solid agreed-upon definition among political scientists? Do you recognize that by the definitions of the scholar I quoted and the dictionary, as well as even the OED, coupled with my perspective can easily fit this ideology into fascism?
 
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