Pastoralists vs Farmers vs Hunter-gatherers

[Commander Dutch]

Thomas Paine expressed an opinion in 'Agrarian Justice':

"It is a position not to be controverted that the earth, in its natural, cultivated state was, and ever would have continued to be, the common property of the human race. In that state every man would have been born to property. He would have been a joint life proprietor with rest in the property of the soil, and in all its natural productions, vegetable and animal."
https://www.ssa.gov/history/paine4.html

That's all very sweet, Jack, but it only works in civilizations, not in the jungle.

 

[Jack]

That's all very sweet, Jack, but it only works in civilizations, not in the jungle.

It's all about the transition of 'Hunter-Gatherers' into 'Farmers'.
'Common Ownership' into 'Private Ownership' of Land.
A stark reckoning in Colonial America.

 

[Commander Dutch]

It's all about the transition of 'Hunter-Gatherers' into 'Farmers'.
'Common Ownership' into 'Private Ownership' of Land.
A stark reckoning in Colonial America.

Only a Bipolar nutjob believes that only happened in "Colonial America".

Get real, Jack. You can spread your hate as much as you like but you risk looking like a fucking moron when you do.

 

[Jack]

Only a Bipolar nutjob believes that only happened in "Colonial America".

Get real, Jack. You can spread your hate as much as you like but you risk looking like a fucking moron when you do.

Interesting that you think Thomas Paine and his 'Agrarian Justice' has anything to do with 'Hate'.
It's an opinion piece by a revolutionary thinker on 'Land use'.

 

[Jack]

"Agrarian Justice is the title of a pamphlet written by Thomas Paine and published in 1797, which proposed that those who possess cultivated land owe the community a ground rent, which justifies an estate tax to fund universal old-age and disability pensions and a fixed sum to be paid to all citizens upon reaching ..."
Agrarian Justice - Wikipedia

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Imagine the beautiful hybrid that will exist once we are fully world wide mixed

I have news for you Desh. We already are. Far more than people would care to believe.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

My DNA is strictly northern European, and my translucent skin tone could use a little more brown

I doubt that. There’s probably some Laplander and Indoasian mixed in there.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I’m northern mutt

But I’m brown and olive


I have blonde siblings though with pale skin


That’s my hubby too

He has more German in his line than I do


The rumor in my family is American native influence

At least one first name in the line sure suggests it

I would suggest that those of European descent who’s ancestors emigrated across the Appalachian Mountains before the 19th century probably have some Native American in their ancestry.

Your tan/olive complexion though may be more from a Mediterranean ancestry.

 

[Commander Dutch]

I would suggest that those of European descent who’s ancestors emigrated across the Appalachian Mountains before the 19th century probably have some Native American in their ancestry.

Your tan/olive complexion though may be more from a Mediterranean ancestry.

And/or Spanish. The SouthWest USA has a slightly different history than the NE.

A DNA test would tell her. I'm 9% Spanish.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

The Romans could never quite beat us!!!!!!!!

They had their moments. They utterly annihilated the Germanic Cimbric tribes in the late 2nd Century BCE.

The Cimbric migration was a human catastrophe of unmitigated proportions in that era of European history. The Cimbric migration began in the Danish Peninsula due to some unknown ecological disaster. It’s believed rising sea levels salinated their land to where agriculture became extremely difficult which thus prompted their migration. As they began their migration through northern and Central Europe they picked up more Germanic tribes as they went. Their numbers grew to around 800,000. It was like a plague of human locust. They would invade a region with numbers and military prowess to great for the locals to combat. They would settle for a while, eat out the regions food sources, then due to constant attacks and hunger would move on and leave the locals to starve and starve they did. Massive population drops occurred wherever this massive migration went.

Eventually they heard of the prosperity of the Mediterranean region and began migrating there. That is when they ran into the Romans. The Cimbri were not impressed by the Romans. Though they were deeply impressed with Roman organization and discipline the Romans smaller stature and civilized behavior and they thought of the Romans as effeminate and weak.

A major miscalculation on their part. An attitude that wasn’t helped by the Romans losing some catastrophic battles to the Cimbri due to the military incompetence of the Aristocratic Generals Rome sent to stop the Cimbric Migration into Roman Territory. The last defeat was the battle of Arousio. The Romans lost two field armies of around 70,000 legionaries and around 40,000 civilian totaling over 100,000 killed. All due to one man. One of the two commanding generals who was legally second in command refused to take orders from the Legal Consul who was in over all command because that general was a Homo Novus (New Man). The first man in his family to become a nobleman by earning the office of Consul, which was the highest magistracy of the Roman Republic. The General who was second in command, because he was from an ancient Patrician family, refused to take orders from the Legal Consul because he was a New Man.

When the Cimbric learned about this division of the Romans the promptly attacked and defeated both Roman Armies in detail. Though the Cimbri did have the Romans seriously outnumbered. The Romans certainly had the military acumen to have defeated the ill disciplined and poorly organized Cimbri.

The loss at Arousio was catastrophic and left the Italian peninsula open to invasion. What was worse was that over the period of fighting the Cimbri, due to military incompetence of its Aristocratic Generals had lost over 250,000 legionaries. The Italian Peninsula only had a population of three million at that time and virtually all the men who met the property qualifications to join the Roman Legions had been wiped out.

Fate saved Rome’s ass this time as, for whatever reason, the Cimbri didn’t invade Rome. They invaded Spain instead. The Romans however new they would be back once they ate Spain out of house and home. Which they did. However that took about five years.

During this time Rome recalled their best General, Gaius Marius, from North Africa where he had just defeated the Numidians under King Jugurtha. Marius was promptly elected senior Consul and was placed in charge of defeating the Cimbri. Marius proceeded to make radical changes to the Roman Legions. He eliminated the property qualifications so the Roman poor could join the legions. He then standardized Roman Army’s equipment, training and tactics and converted it into a standing professional Army. When Marius finally met the Cimbri in battle when they finally invaded Italy he annihilated the Cimbri in two ferocious battles. What was left of the Cimbri tried to escape into Gaul where the Gauls exterminated the survivors in revenge for the devastation the Cimbri had committed in Gaul. Only a few thousand of the Macromani tribe survived by escaping into what is modern day Switzerland.

The Germanic people were a spent force for hundreds of years afterwards but did come back and eventually destroyed the Roman Empire.

The consequences for Rome due to the Cimbric war were huge. It set in motion a series of events that led directly to the fall of the Roman Republic and the rise of the Roman Imperium. All due to the ego of one man, Quintus Servelius Caepio, who was responsible for the Romans massive defeat at Arausio.

To give you an idea what a massive villain Caepio was before the Battle of Arausio his Army had discovered a massive cache of gold and silver in Gaul. This cache represented far more wealth than was in the Roman treasury. By all rights this massive amount of gold and silver belonged to Rome. Caepio had the gold and silver transported to Rome. The silver being of far lesser value made it to Rome. The Gold didn’t. Caepio sent the gold towards Rome with a guard of a Cohort of Legionaries (about 500 men). He then hired a thousand Guals to ambush the Gold shipment and kill the entire Cohort guarding the gold. When the Gauls returned with the gold Caepio had it transported to an unknown location in Anatolia and had his Army kill the Gauls. Dead men can’t tell secrets.

All this was discovered after Caepio had caused the loss at Arausio with over 100,000 dead and Caepio had survived the defeat by abandoning his Army to its fate and returned to Rome. Now here’s the part that’s unfucking believable.

Caepio got away with it. He stole about $40 Billion in gold by todays value (and gold had far more purchasing power in antiquity than now) and lost a battle with a huge loss of life and nearly caused the end of Rome and the Aristocracy refused to have him executed and instead banned him from Rome. Caepio then left for Anatolia where he conspired with his son to invest his ill gotten wealth all over the Roman provinces and Italy. The Caepio family became the most wealthy family in Rome. And to show that Caepio’s blood ran true one of Caesars assassins was his grandson Brutus (of et tu Brutus fame).
Brutus was also the wealthiest man in Rome at that time. Far wealthier than Caesar, Pompey and Crassus put together and all three were spectacularly wealthy.

Caepio has to go down in history as one of the greatest villains ever.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

And/or Spanish. The SouthWest USA has a slightly different history than the NE.

A DNA test would tell her. I'm 9% Spanish.

True dat. That’s what I find rather ironic about what’s going on at the border in Arizona. The ethnic groups that they are so hostile towards immigration have been migrating back and forth across this region for only a mere 20,000 years. Yet they are the interlopers to some European immigrants who’ve only been there a few generations. LOL

 

[Stone]

They had their moments. They utterly annihilated the Germanic Cimbric tribes in the late 2nd Century BCE.

The Cimbric migration was a human catastrophe of unmitigated proportions in that era of European history. The Cimbric migration began in the Danish Peninsula due to some unknown ecological disaster. It’s believed rising sea levels salinated their land to where agriculture became extremely difficult which thus prompted their migration. As they began their migration through northern and Central Europe they picked up more Germanic tribes as they went. Their numbers grew to around 800,000. It was like a plague of human locust. They would invade a region with numbers and military prowess to great for the locals to combat. They would settle for a while, eat out the regions food sources, then due to constant attacks and hunger would move on and leave the locals to starve and starve they did. Massive population drops occurred wherever this massive migration went.

Eventually they heard of the prosperity of the Mediterranean region and began migrating there. That is when they ran into the Romans. The Cimbri were not impressed by the Romans. Though they were deeply impressed with Roman organization and discipline the Romans smaller stature and civilized behavior and they thought of the Romans as effeminate and weak.

A major miscalculation on their part. An attitude that wasn’t helped by the Romans losing some catastrophic battles to the Cimbri due to the military incompetence of the Aristocratic Generals Rome sent to stop the Cimbric Migration into Roman Territory. The last defeat was the battle of Arousio. The Romans lost two field armies of around 70,000 legionaries and around 40,000 civilian totaling over 100,000 killed. All due to one man. One of the two commanding generals who was legally second in command refused to take orders from the Legal Consul who was in over all command because that general was a Homo Novus (New Man). The first man in his family to become a nobleman by earning the office of Consul, which was the highest magistracy of the Roman Republic. The General who was second in command, because he was from an ancient Patrician family, refused to take orders from the Legal Consul because he was a New Man.

When the Cimbric learned about this division of the Romans the promptly attacked and defeated both Roman Armies in detail. Though the Cimbri did have the Romans seriously outnumbered. The Romans certainly had the military acumen to have defeated the ill disciplined and poorly organized Cimbri.

The loss at Arousio was catastrophic and left the Italian peninsula open to invasion. What was worse was that over the period of fighting the Cimbri, due to military incompetence of its Aristocratic Generals had lost over 250,000 legionaries. The Italian Peninsula only had a population of three million at that time and virtually all the men who met the property qualifications to join the Roman Legions had been wiped out.

Fate saved Rome’s ass this time as, for whatever reason, the Cimbri didn’t invade Rome. They invaded Spain instead. The Romans however new they would be back once they ate Spain out of house and home. Which they did. However that took about five years.

During this time Rome recalled their best General, Gaius Marius, from North Africa where he had just defeated the Numidians under King Jugurtha. Marius was promptly elected senior Consul and was placed in charge of defeating the Cimbri. Marius proceeded to make radical changes to the Roman Legions. He eliminated the property qualifications so the Roman poor could join the legions. He then standardized Roman Army’s equipment, training and tactics and converted it into a standing professional Army. When Marius finally met the Cimbri in battle when they finally invaded Italy he annihilated the Cimbri in two ferocious battles. What was left of the Cimbri tried to escape into Gaul where the Gauls exterminated the survivors in revenge for the devastation the Cimbri had committed in Gaul. Only a few thousand of the Macromani tribe survived by escaping into what is modern day Switzerland.

The Germanic people were a spent force for hundreds of years afterwards but did come back and eventually destroyed the Roman Empire.

The consequences for Rome due to the Cimbric war were huge. It set in motion a series of events that led directly to the fall of the Roman Republic and the rise of the Roman Imperium. All due to the ego of one man, Quintus Servelius Caepio, who was responsible for the Romans massive defeat at Arausio.

To give you an idea what a massive villain Caepio was before the Battle of Arausio his Army had discovered a massive cache of gold and silver in Gaul. This cache represented far more wealth than was in the Roman treasury. By all rights this massive amount of gold and silver belonged to Rome. Caepio had the gold and silver transported to Rome. The silver being of far lesser value made it to Rome. The Gold didn’t. Caepio sent the gold towards Rome with a guard of a Cohort of Legionaries (about 500 men). He then hired a thousand Guals to ambush the Gold shipment and kill the entire Cohort guarding the gold. When the Gauls returned with the gold Caepio had it transported to an unknown location in Anatolia and had his Army kill the Gauls. Dead men can’t tell secrets.

All this was discovered after Caepio had caused the loss at Arausio with over 100,000 dead and Caepio had survived the defeat by abandoning his Army to its fate and returned to Rome. Now here’s the part that’s unfucking believable.

Caepio got away with it. He stole about $40 Billion in gold by todays value (and gold had far more purchasing power in antiquity than now) and lost a battle with a huge loss of life and nearly caused the end of Rome and the Aristocracy refused to have him executed and instead banned him from Rome. Caepio then left for Anatolia where he conspired with his son to invest his ill gotten wealth all over the Roman provinces and Italy. The Caepio family became the most wealthy family in Rome. And to show that Caepio’s blood ran true one of Caesars assassins was his grandson Brutus (of et tu Brutus fame).
Brutus was also the wealthiest man in Rome at that time. Far wealthier than Caesar, Pompey and Crassus put together and all three were spectacularly wealthy.

Caepio has to go down in history as one of the greatest villains ever.

Awesome! Thank you...

 

[Commander Dutch]

...During this time Rome recalled their best General, Gaius Marius, from North Africa where he had just defeated the Numidians under King Jugurtha. Marius was promptly elected senior Consul and was placed in charge of defeating the Cimbri. Marius proceeded to make radical changes to the Roman Legions. He eliminated the property qualifications so the Roman poor could join the legions. He then standardized Roman Army’s equipment, training and tactics and converted it into a standing professional Army. When Marius finally met the Cimbri in battle when they finally invaded Italy he annihilated the Cimbri in two ferocious battles. What was left of the Cimbri tried to escape into Gaul where the Gauls exterminated the survivors in revenge for the devastation the Cimbri had committed in Gaul. Only a few thousand of the Macromani tribe survived by escaping into what is modern day Switzerland....

Thanks for the story.

The quoted part was an interesting game-changer.....not that it saved the Romans from their own politicians in the end.

 

[Commander Dutch]

True dat. That’s what I find rather ironic about what’s going on at the border in Arizona. The ethnic groups that they are so hostile towards immigration have been migrating back and forth across this region for only a mere 20,000 years. Yet they are the interlopers to some European immigrants who’ve only been there a few generations. LOL

LOL. Irony and hypocrisy abound.

 

[Cypress]

I doubt that. There’s probably some Laplander and Indoasian mixed in there.

I meant northern European heritage from progenitors in the last two thousand years.

If you go back far enough, nobody has roots in northern Europe because it was uninhabitable due to ice sheets and thee last glacial maximum. Humans living in Europe 15,000 years ago would have limited to the Iberian peninsula, Italy, southern Balkans.

As to Eurasian heritage, I think the vast majority of people of European descent have at least some heritage from the Neolithic pastoralist tribes of the Eurasian Pontic steppes. Because 90 percent of Europe speaks an Indo-Euopean language, and has for thousands of years, is decisive evidence of that.

In my mind the only exceptions to heritage from the Pontic steppes is the Basque region, as I mentioned in an earlier post, and the speakers of Uralic European languages, since that language family (including your Laplanders) is presumed to have roots in the vicinity of the Ural mountains

 

[evince]

I have news for you Desh. We already are. Far more than people would care to believe.

But we are not finished


Act locally, fuck globally

 

[evince]

I would suggest that those of European descent who’s ancestors emigrated across the Appalachian Mountains before the 19th century probably have some Native American in their ancestry.

Your tan/olive complexion though may be more from a Mediterranean ancestry.

No really telling without a DNA test


I don’t need one

All lines are beautiful

I love embracing my muttness


The more mutt the better

 

[evince]

They had their moments. They utterly annihilated the Germanic Cimbric tribes in the late 2nd Century BCE.

The Cimbric migration was a human catastrophe of unmitigated proportions in that era of European history. The Cimbric migration began in the Danish Peninsula due to some unknown ecological disaster. It’s believed rising sea levels salinated their land to where agriculture became extremely difficult which thus prompted their migration. As they began their migration through northern and Central Europe they picked up more Germanic tribes as they went. Their numbers grew to around 800,000. It was like a plague of human locust. They would invade a region with numbers and military prowess to great for the locals to combat. They would settle for a while, eat out the regions food sources, then due to constant attacks and hunger would move on and leave the locals to starve and starve they did. Massive population drops occurred wherever this massive migration went.

Eventually they heard of the prosperity of the Mediterranean region and began migrating there. That is when they ran into the Romans. The Cimbri were not impressed by the Romans. Though they were deeply impressed with Roman organization and discipline the Romans smaller stature and civilized behavior and they thought of the Romans as effeminate and weak.

A major miscalculation on their part. An attitude that wasn’t helped by the Romans losing some catastrophic battles to the Cimbri due to the military incompetence of the Aristocratic Generals Rome sent to stop the Cimbric Migration into Roman Territory. The last defeat was the battle of Arousio. The Romans lost two field armies of around 70,000 legionaries and around 40,000 civilian totaling over 100,000 killed. All due to one man. One of the two commanding generals who was legally second in command refused to take orders from the Legal Consul who was in over all command because that general was a Homo Novus (New Man). The first man in his family to become a nobleman by earning the office of Consul, which was the highest magistracy of the Roman Republic. The General who was second in command, because he was from an ancient Patrician family, refused to take orders from the Legal Consul because he was a New Man.

When the Cimbric learned about this division of the Romans the promptly attacked and defeated both Roman Armies in detail. Though the Cimbri did have the Romans seriously outnumbered. The Romans certainly had the military acumen to have defeated the ill disciplined and poorly organized Cimbri.

The loss at Arousio was catastrophic and left the Italian peninsula open to invasion. What was worse was that over the period of fighting the Cimbri, due to military incompetence of its Aristocratic Generals had lost over 250,000 legionaries. The Italian Peninsula only had a population of three million at that time and virtually all the men who met the property qualifications to join the Roman Legions had been wiped out.

Fate saved Rome’s ass this time as, for whatever reason, the Cimbri didn’t invade Rome. They invaded Spain instead. The Romans however new they would be back once they ate Spain out of house and home. Which they did. However that took about five years.

During this time Rome recalled their best General, Gaius Marius, from North Africa where he had just defeated the Numidians under King Jugurtha. Marius was promptly elected senior Consul and was placed in charge of defeating the Cimbri. Marius proceeded to make radical changes to the Roman Legions. He eliminated the property qualifications so the Roman poor could join the legions. He then standardized Roman Army’s equipment, training and tactics and converted it into a standing professional Army. When Marius finally met the Cimbri in battle when they finally invaded Italy he annihilated the Cimbri in two ferocious battles. What was left of the Cimbri tried to escape into Gaul where the Gauls exterminated the survivors in revenge for the devastation the Cimbri had committed in Gaul. Only a few thousand of the Macromani tribe survived by escaping into what is modern day Switzerland.

The Germanic people were a spent force for hundreds of years afterwards but did come back and eventually destroyed the Roman Empire.

The consequences for Rome due to the Cimbric war were huge. It set in motion a series of events that led directly to the fall of the Roman Republic and the rise of the Roman Imperium. All due to the ego of one man, Quintus Servelius Caepio, who was responsible for the Romans massive defeat at Arausio.

To give you an idea what a massive villain Caepio was before the Battle of Arausio his Army had discovered a massive cache of gold and silver in Gaul. This cache represented far more wealth than was in the Roman treasury. By all rights this massive amount of gold and silver belonged to Rome. Caepio had the gold and silver transported to Rome. The silver being of far lesser value made it to Rome. The Gold didn’t. Caepio sent the gold towards Rome with a guard of a Cohort of Legionaries (about 500 men). He then hired a thousand Guals to ambush the Gold shipment and kill the entire Cohort guarding the gold. When the Gauls returned with the gold Caepio had it transported to an unknown location in Anatolia and had his Army kill the Gauls. Dead men can’t tell secrets.

All this was discovered after Caepio had caused the loss at Arausio with over 100,000 dead and Caepio had survived the defeat by abandoning his Army to its fate and returned to Rome. Now here’s the part that’s unfucking believable.

Caepio got away with it. He stole about $40 Billion in gold by todays value (and gold had far more purchasing power in antiquity than now) and lost a battle with a huge loss of life and nearly caused the end of Rome and the Aristocracy refused to have him executed and instead banned him from Rome. Caepio then left for Anatolia where he conspired with his son to invest his ill gotten wealth all over the Roman provinces and Italy. The Caepio family became the most wealthy family in Rome. And to show that Caepio’s blood ran true one of Caesars assassins was his grandson Brutus (of et tu Brutus fame).
Brutus was also the wealthiest man in Rome at that time. Far wealthier than Caesar, Pompey and Crassus put together and all three were spectacularly wealthy.

Caepio has to go down in history as one of the greatest villains ever.

Knowing history sure teaches a lot about mankind and how things like racism and class can easily limit any social structure and result in its doom


I guess that’s why Republican starve schools and hate edumacation

 

[RB 60]

Knowing history sure teaches a lot about mankind and how things like racism and class can easily limit any social structure and result in its doom


I guess that’s why Republican starve schools and hate edumacation

Kids aren't racist until you teach them to be.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Thanks for the story.

The quoted part was an interesting game-changer.....not that it saved the Romans from their own politicians in the end.

No it didn’t but we’re talking about a time span of nearly a thousand years and during that time span the Roman when they had their backs up against the wall always seemed to have a genius who saved the day.