Pastoralists vs Farmers vs Hunter-gatherers

[Mott the Hoople]

I meant northern European heritage from progenitors in the last two thousand years.

If you go back far enough, nobody has roots in northern Europe because it was uninhabitable due to ice sheets and thee last glacial maximum. Humans living in Europe 15,000 years ago would have limited to the Iberian peninsula, Italy, southern Balkans.

As to Eurasian heritage, I think the vast majority of people of European descent have at least some heritage from the Neolithic pastoralist tribes of the Eurasian Pontic steppes. Because 90 percent of Europe speaks an Indo-Euopean language, and has for thousands of years, is decisive evidence of that.

In my mind the only exceptions to heritage from the Pontic steppes is the Basque region, as I mentioned in an earlier post, and the speakers of Uralic European languages, since that language family (including your Laplanders) is presumed to have roots in the vicinity of the Ural mountains

There was also a vast influx of pastoralist inheritance from the steppes of far Eastern Asia during the early and late Middle Ages via the Huns, The Bolgers and most famously the Mongols.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

No really telling without a DNA test


I don’t need one

All lines are beautiful

I love embracing my muttness


The more mutt the better

Me too. Americans are the quintessential human mutts.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

No it didn’t but we’re talking about a time span of nearly a thousand years and during that time span the Roman when they had their backs up against the wall always seemed to have a genius who saved the day.

As we'll see today, no quarterback ever wins a game on his own. Yes, it's important to have competent leaders as your post proved, but as it also proved, it needs to have a competent army that well trained and well led. The battle of Arousio is evidence of what an unprofessional army led by the person with the most political influence can produce even against barbarians.

The army Gaius Marius rebuilt was the model of the Roman Legions most people remember...even if those changes eventually ended in the Fall of the Roman Empire:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Marius#Reforms_to_the_military
After the repeated disasters of the Cimbrian War, the need for men became ever more acute. Marius and his contemporaries' need for soldiers cemented a paradigmatic shift away from the levy-based armies of the middle Republic towards open recruitment. It may have taken some time, however, for recruitment of the urban poor to become common, perhaps only becoming common practice by the Social War. Recruitment of the urban poor by itself did not change the social background of the legions: "the abandonment of the property qualification may not have greatly changed the social composition of the legion... a high proportion of those impoverished peasants who stayed in the country... may still have had enough property to qualify". The armies of the late Republic still were predominantly rural. But the need for men and recruitment of the rural and urban poor found soldiers strongly loyal not to the Republic, but to their generals, who would be perceived as comrades, benefactors, and patrons.

Without a draft, we might find ourselves in this predicament with a few more rounds of fucked up civilian leadership.

 

[Cypress]

There was also a vast influx of pastoralist inheritance from the steppes of far Eastern Asia during the early and late Middle Ages via the Huns, The Bolgers and most famously the Mongols.

Good point, if you fast forward a few thousand years to Late Antiquity and the middle ages, Europe was under constant pressure from nomadic pastoralists.

The only caveats I would make is that the Mongols never penetrated much farther east that the present day Ukraine steppes, the Huns only flourished for a couple hundred years before supposedly disappearing from the European scene. The Magyars and Turkic tribes had a longer lasting footprint in Eastern Europe.

I think modern scholarship consensus is that the Huns probably didn't come from East Asia, at least if we are talking about the geographic context of Mongolia, Manchuria, or Siberia. The Huns, the Magyars, and the Turkic tribes probably came from central Asia, possibly around the Caspian Sea, the Ural mountains, or the modern territory of Kazakhstan.

No one really knows for sure, so they might have an East Asian origin.

 

[Cypress]

They had their moments. They utterly annihilated the Germanic Cimbric tribes in the late 2nd Century BCE.

The Cimbric migration was a human catastrophe of unmitigated proportions in that era of European history. The Cimbric migration began in the Danish Peninsula due to some unknown ecological disaster. It’s believed rising sea levels salinated their land to where agriculture became extremely difficult which thus prompted their migration. As they began their migration through northern and Central Europe they picked up more Germanic tribes as they went. Their numbers grew to around 800,000. It was like a plague of human locust. They would invade a region with numbers and military prowess to great for the locals to combat. They would settle for a while, eat out the regions food sources, then due to constant attacks and hunger would move on and leave the locals to starve and starve they did. Massive population drops occurred wherever this massive migration went.

Eventually they heard of the prosperity of the Mediterranean region and began migrating there. That is when they ran into the Romans. The Cimbri were not impressed by the Romans. Though they were deeply impressed with Roman organization and discipline the Romans smaller stature and civilized behavior and they thought of the Romans as effeminate and weak.

A major miscalculation on their part. An attitude that wasn’t helped by the Romans losing some catastrophic battles to the Cimbri due to the military incompetence of the Aristocratic Generals Rome sent to stop the Cimbric Migration into Roman Territory. The last defeat was the battle of Arousio. The Romans lost two field armies of around 70,000 legionaries and around 40,000 civilian totaling over 100,000 killed. All due to one man. One of the two commanding generals who was legally second in command refused to take orders from the Legal Consul who was in over all command because that general was a Homo Novus (New Man). The first man in his family to become a nobleman by earning the office of Consul, which was the highest magistracy of the Roman Republic. The General who was second in command, because he was from an ancient Patrician family, refused to take orders from the Legal Consul because he was a New Man.

When the Cimbric learned about this division of the Romans the promptly attacked and defeated both Roman Armies in detail. Though the Cimbri did have the Romans seriously outnumbered. The Romans certainly had the military acumen to have defeated the ill disciplined and poorly organized Cimbri.

The loss at Arousio was catastrophic and left the Italian peninsula open to invasion. What was worse was that over the period of fighting the Cimbri, due to military incompetence of its Aristocratic Generals had lost over 250,000 legionaries. The Italian Peninsula only had a population of three million at that time and virtually all the men who met the property qualifications to join the Roman Legions had been wiped out.

Fate saved Rome’s ass this time as, for whatever reason, the Cimbri didn’t invade Rome. They invaded Spain instead. The Romans however new they would be back once they ate Spain out of house and home. Which they did. However that took about five years.

During this time Rome recalled their best General, Gaius Marius, from North Africa where he had just defeated the Numidians under King Jugurtha. Marius was promptly elected senior Consul and was placed in charge of defeating the Cimbri. Marius proceeded to make radical changes to the Roman Legions. He eliminated the property qualifications so the Roman poor could join the legions. He then standardized Roman Army’s equipment, training and tactics and converted it into a standing professional Army. When Marius finally met the Cimbri in battle when they finally invaded Italy he annihilated the Cimbri in two ferocious battles. What was left of the Cimbri tried to escape into Gaul where the Gauls exterminated the survivors in revenge for the devastation the Cimbri had committed in Gaul. Only a few thousand of the Macromani tribe survived by escaping into what is modern day Switzerland.

The Germanic people were a spent force for hundreds of years afterwards but did come back and eventually destroyed the Roman Empire.

The consequences for Rome due to the Cimbric war were huge. It set in motion a series of events that led directly to the fall of the Roman Republic and the rise of the Roman Imperium. All due to the ego of one man, Quintus Servelius Caepio, who was responsible for the Romans massive defeat at Arausio.

To give you an idea what a massive villain Caepio was before the Battle of Arausio his Army had discovered a massive cache of gold and silver in Gaul. This cache represented far more wealth than was in the Roman treasury. By all rights this massive amount of gold and silver belonged to Rome. Caepio had the gold and silver transported to Rome. The silver being of far lesser value made it to Rome. The Gold didn’t. Caepio sent the gold towards Rome with a guard of a Cohort of Legionaries (about 500 men). He then hired a thousand Guals to ambush the Gold shipment and kill the entire Cohort guarding the gold. When the Gauls returned with the gold Caepio had it transported to an unknown location in Anatolia and had his Army kill the Gauls. Dead men can’t tell secrets.

All this was discovered after Caepio had caused the loss at Arausio with over 100,000 dead and Caepio had survived the defeat by abandoning his Army to its fate and returned to Rome. Now here’s the part that’s unfucking believable.

Caepio got away with it. He stole about $40 Billion in gold by todays value (and gold had far more purchasing power in antiquity than now) and lost a battle with a huge loss of life and nearly caused the end of Rome and the Aristocracy refused to have him executed and instead banned him from Rome. Caepio then left for Anatolia where he conspired with his son to invest his ill gotten wealth all over the Roman provinces and Italy. The Caepio family became the most wealthy family in Rome. And to show that Caepio’s blood ran true one of Caesars assassins was his grandson Brutus (of et tu Brutus fame).
Brutus was also the wealthiest man in Rome at that time. Far wealthier than Caesar, Pompey and Crassus put together and all three were spectacularly wealthy.

Caepio has to go down in history as one of the greatest villains ever.

I love that you are a history buff.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Good point, if you fast forward a few thousand years to Late Antiquity and the middle ages, Europe was under constant pressure from nomadic pastoralists.

The only caveats I would make is that the Mongols never penetrated much farther east that the present day Ukraine steppes, the Huns only flourished for a couple hundred years before supposedly disappearing from the European scene. The Magyars and Turkic tribes had a longer lasting footprint in Eastern Europe.

I think modern scholarship consensus is that the Huns probably didn't come from East Asia, at least if we are talking about the geographic context of Mongolia, Manchuria, or Siberia. The Huns, the Magyars, and the Turkic tribes probably came from central Asia, possibly around the Caspian Sea, the Ural mountains, or the modern territory of Kazakhstan.

No one really knows for sure, so they might have an East Asian origin.

Actually the Mongols penetrated Europe as far as Modern day Poland and Hungary.

 

[Cypress]

Actually the Mongols penetrated Europe as far as Modern day Poland and Hungary.

Right. Yes, I know the Mogols fought battles in Poland and Hungary, but their presence there did not persist. They eventually pulled back to the boundaries of their Golden Horde state. Any map of the Golden Horde shows its extent to largely be limited to modern Ukraine, Crimea, Caucuses, Kazakhstan.

The pastoralism and cultural practices of the Mongols had almost no effect on western and central Europe. Their biggest prize and lasting influence was China and Central Asia.

 

[Geeko Sportivo]

You know what is kind of interesting in that. I am mostly all Northern Euro and at a recent checkup my doctor informed me that my cholesterol was outstanding. It always is. Even at my age. He told me then he thought it was hereditary.

Cholesterol is something that one eats- you certainly don't inherit it!

Eat enough of it- and your ass will eventually grow together before you even expect it to!

You should probably seek a new doctor that will tell you the TRUTH about cholesterol!

 

[RB 60]

Cholesterol is something that one eats- you certainly don't inherit it!

Eat enough of it- and your ass will eventually grow together before you even expect it to!

You should probably seek a new doctor that will tell you the TRUTH about cholesterol!

Yes, high Cholesterol can be inherited.

Some people can eat whatever they want and have natural control of their Cholesterol.

Doctors agree that high Cholesterol can, and in some cases IS hereditary.

 

[Stone]

Cholesterol is something that one eats- you certainly don't inherit it!

Eat enough of it- and your ass will eventually grow together before you even expect it to!

You should probably seek a new doctor that will tell you the TRUTH about cholesterol!

Yes,...high or low cholesterol CAN be hereditary. I suggest you learn some facts before spouting off. My cholesterol levels are just naturally good no matter what type of foods I eat.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Right. Yes, I know the Mogols fought battles in Poland and Hungary, but their presence there did not persist. They eventually pulled back to the boundaries of their Golden Horde state. Any map of the Golden Horde shows its extent to largely be limited to modern Ukraine, Crimea, Caucuses, Kazakhstan.

The pastoralism and cultural practices of the Mongols had almost no effect on western and central Europe. Their biggest prize and lasting influence was China and Central Asia.

I’m sorry Cyprus but that’s not correct. The Mongols extent had two major impacts on Western Europe. It re-established the Silk Road Trade route into Western Europe and it brought the Black Plaque.

 

[Cypress]

I’m sorry Cyprus but that’s not correct. The Mongols extent had two major impacts on Western Europe. It re-established the Silk Road Trade route into Western Europe and it brought the Black Plaque.

Oh you're right. I thought you said their pastoralism and their culture had an effect on the West.

The Pax Mongolia certainly made it easier for traders to make their way through central Asia.

The Mongolian empire most certainly had global economic and strategic influences.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Oh you're right. I thought you said their pastoralism and their culture had an effect on the West.

The Pax Mongolia certainly made it easier for traders to make their way through central Asia.

The Mongolian empire most certainly had global economic and strategic influences.

They had a major environmental impact too. The Mongols not only killed massive numbers of people that had never occurred in human history up to modern times and along with the civilizations they destroyed they also destroyed their infrastructure, particularly in agricultural irrigation systems causing large scale desertification and conversely other agricultural lands were so depopulated that they returned to forest lands. It’s an interesting read how they impacted the environment on a massive scale.