APP - Proof That God Exists

Dixie said:
...So, God doesn't exist in a physical sense, and it's pointless to try and prove existence with physical parameters. In order to properly examine the question, we need to evaluate 'exist' as meaning, in a spiritual sense, because that is what God is, a spiritual entity. Now, whether something 'exists' in a spiritual sense, is very difficult, in fact, impossible to prove or disprove.
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You could have stopped there. If something is impossible to prove.... and science is changing the ideas of time and space, but so what - I'm wondering what we will do for a hundred trillions years times .... curious that we have to have immortality or some do.
 
midcan5 said:
You could have stopped there. If something is impossible to prove.... and science is changing the ideas of time and space, but so what - I'm wondering what we will do for a hundred trillions years times .... curious that we have to have immortality or some do.
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interesting......this coming from a guy with a head start on oblivion.....
 
Dixie said:
You need faith even in the presence of proof, do you not? Honestly, think about that for a moment. Is there anything you can "prove" that doesn't require your faith and belief? In fact, one could argue from a philosophical point, it is impossible to have faith and belief without "proof." There has to be something which makes you believe and have faith, in the first place. Now we can argue over what is legitimate "proof" and what is perception of "proof" to an individual, and we get right back to the fundamentals of the OP, it all boils down to what you have faith in. If you have no faith in spirituality, you could hardly have faith in God, therefore, you are not going to believe in God and you will reject any "proof" presented by others, because you lack this faith. It doesn't mean "proof" doesn't exist, it simply means you reject the "proof" and call it bullshit.

I'll remind you once again, the point of the OP was not to answer the question, it was to examine the context and understand the question from a more appropriate context. I readily admit the question isn't answered, it can't be answered, that is why it continues to be argued. My only goal was to have people think about the context of the question, and examine it's legitimacy in a fair way. Some have been able to do that, others like you and Grind, want to run straight back to the safety of the argument in your old familiar context, an argument you believe you can win, because you are too afraid to explore other possibilities.

You can't demand physical proof of a supernatural thing, it's as silly and pointless as demanding science be explained by spirituality. The spiritual and physical worlds are two entirely different things, so why would parameters of one fit the other? Why would requiring physical proof for a supernatural entity, be any less ridiculous than requiring supernatural proof of the physical? In my opinion, one is as bad as the other. We must put things in their proper context before we answer the question.
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No, to the contrary. Faith requires proof about as much as reason requires feelings.
 
Derp Derp said:
No, I mean I could care less what a ham sandwhich weighs and that's about what all this philosophizing adds up to.
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if you don't like philosophizing, why visit a thread where it's happening....you could have just as easily stayed in the shallow end of the pool......
 
Derp Derp said:
and from a philisophical stand point you could say the same thing about a ham sandwhich.
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No, you can't say much about a ham sandwich. It is ham, bread, and possibly mayo, mustard, or other condiment. That's about all. It doesn't exhibit spirituality, it doesn't have faith in either science or spiritual entities, it doesn't have feelings or reason, it is just a man-made object of sustenance. It basically has nothing to do with this conversation.

Now, DripDrip, let's break down what you said: Faith requires proof about as much as reason requires feelings.

This leads one to believe we are to equate proof with reason, and faith with feelings. But we know that you do have faith in science, even when science can't definitively answer any question. Therefore, faith and feelings do not equal the same thing. Faith is based on more than feelings, it is based on knowledge and understanding, your comprehension, and how much you believe what you have learned. Faith in science and faith in spirituality, are equals, and this is where you have difficulty grasping the truth. Since you reject spiritual faith, you will close your mind to this possibility, but the truth is; faith is faith.

Much the same can be said for proof and reason. Spiritual people have a great deal of spiritual proof for their beliefs and reasons. Because you reject their proof, doesn't mean it's not proof, it just means you reject it as proof. It also doesn't mean their reasoning is invalid, as they have based it on their spiritual proof, it just means that you reject their spiritual proof and don't comprehend the reasoning. None of this changes dynamics of the universe, the truth still remains the truth.
 
Dixie said:
No, you can't say much about a ham sandwich. It is ham, bread, and possibly mayo, mustard, or other condiment. That's about all. It doesn't exhibit spirituality, it doesn't have faith in either science or spiritual entities, it doesn't have feelings or reason, it is just a man-made object of sustenance. It basically has nothing to do with this conversation.

Now, DripDrip, let's break down what you said: Faith requires proof about as much as reason requires feelings.

This leads one to believe we are to equate proof with reason, and faith with feelings. But we know that you do have faith in science, even when science can't definitively answer any question. Therefore, faith and feelings do not equal the same thing. Faith is based on more than feelings, it is based on knowledge and understanding, your comprehension, and how much you believe what you have learned. Faith in science and faith in spirituality, are equals, and this is where you have difficulty grasping the truth. Since you reject spiritual faith, you will close your mind to this possibility, but the truth is; faith is faith.

Much the same can be said for proof and reason. Spiritual people have a great deal of spiritual proof for their beliefs and reasons. Because you reject their proof, doesn't mean it's not proof, it just means you reject it as proof. It also doesn't mean their reasoning is invalid, as they have based it on their spiritual proof, it just means that you reject their spiritual proof and don't comprehend the reasoning. None of this changes dynamics of the universe, the truth still remains the truth.
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It isn't proof Dixie, it is still just faith.
 
"...To die—to sleep,
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to: 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep...."

An imitation of death comes every time we sleep and resembles those billions of years before that tiny swimmer met an egg it liked and you and all the billions who came before were born and died. Life is natural only our hopes make it otherwise. Be careful so you don't join the trillions who left before.


life chance eternity

Why do you exist.

Schopenhauer thought that animals possessed one wisdom we miss, the wisdom to live in the present moment. “I mean their quiet, placid enjoyment of the present moment.”

If you believe in an afterlife what will you do there for eternity? Eternity is a long time and the idea that a billion years from now you will still exist because two people enjoyed a passionate moment is hard to comprehend. Who will you be then.

Two things amaze me, the past and the future but neither include me. In this moment we live and in this and in this.

I know the exact time and place our second child was conceived. When we moved recently I thought of that as we left. I know why I remember.

Imagine for a moment your parents had been interrupted. Suppose someone had shone a flashlight in the backseat of the car you were conceived in, you would not exist. A knock at a door. Some interruption. If only a few seconds passed a different sperm would have meant a different person and you as you exist now would never have been.

What would the person born in that next minute have been. In a month a new egg, so now who would that person be, it would not be you. How easy it would be that we never were. Some distinctive piece changes but that distinctive part is you.

Imagine the egg split, which of the two would have been you. If you arrived second your entire life would be noted in a brief moment. You would be number two. Or if first you would be number one. How would that have changed who you are now.

Before you were born life existed for billions of years, after you die billions of years will pass without you. You will be conscious in the future as you were conscious in the past, not at all. Think of any place. Right now someone is in that place and someone is in another place. They are unaware of the other. They think they know all there is to know. Most will die and never know each other. Chances are nothing that either believe will impact the other.

You walk into the street and are hit by a car. You live now but only in your mind. You cannot move even your eyes and you lie there fully aware of everything but unable to respond. Weeks go by and soon few come to visit. Soon no one comes but you still live. What do you think of. What is the mind without the body.

Someone arrives and says we have a body for this mind. But the body is a woman, your mind now is in the body of a woman. How will that change you. Now your mind lives in another.

Suppose when you crossed that street you had the opportunity to throw someone else in front of the car. It was them or you. You do not know the future. If you pushed the other person in front of the car would you visit them. For how long. What would you tell them when they became a body.

Imagine a date in the future without you. Do that, then look at what happens next and then tomorrow and imagine you are no longer here. It will not matter. What will you wish you had done. I wonder what Timothy McVeigh would have thought of 911? Weird thought - evil is the reason we wish for hell.

You must select one only: you will live forever ugly and deformed or you will live for fifty years as a brilliant person. Which do you choose. Are you sure. You have three minutes in which to make your selection.

Sleep is so peaceful.
 
If you believe in an afterlife what will you do there for eternity? Eternity is a long time and the idea that a billion years from now you will still exist because two people enjoyed a passionate moment is hard to comprehend. Who will you be then.
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Hold on here a minute.... Do you think that people who believe in an afterlife, think their physical bodies (the results of conception) will somehow transcend time and space, and reanimate to the "other side?" That's kind of preposterous, don't you think? Especially since we embalm people after death these days! How do they explain the fact we've dug up many a corpse, who are still there in the grave where we left them?

Your physical vessel is the product of human conception, that has not a thing to do with your soul or where it comes from, or what becomes of it when you die.

Imagine for a moment your parents had been interrupted. Suppose someone had shone a flashlight in the backseat of the car you were conceived in, you would not exist. A knock at a door. Some interruption. If only a few seconds passed a different sperm would have meant a different person and you as you exist now would never have been.
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Again, you are demonstrating an understanding and comprehension of the physical world, while refusing to acknowledge a spiritual one. You don't know that "a different person would exist" at all, you may believe that a different molecular structure is formed in a physical state, and you're probably correct about that, but you have no way of knowing whether that person would have the same attributes and personality or not.
 
Dixie said:
Hold on here a minute.... Do you think that people who believe in an afterlife, think their physical bodies (the results of conception) will somehow transcend time and space, and reanimate to the "other side?" That's kind of preposterous, don't you think? Especially since we embalm people after death these days! How do they explain the fact we've dug up many a corpse, who are still there in the grave where we left them?

Your physical vessel is the product of human conception, that has not a thing to do with your soul or where it comes from, or what becomes of it when you die.

Again, you are demonstrating an understanding and comprehension of the physical world, while refusing to acknowledge a spiritual one. You don't know that "a different person would exist" at all, you may believe that a different molecular structure is formed in a physical state, and you're probably correct about that, but you have no way of knowing whether that person would have the same attributes and personality or not.
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So abortion merely eliminates the "physical vessel (that) is product of human conception, that has not a thing to do with your soul or where it comes from."

By God, Dixie! I think we've broken through! YIPPEE! :cheer:

I knew not to give up on you. I knew you would come through. I just knew!!

Well done, Lad. Now you understand that abortion does not kill a human being. Abortion has nothing to do with ones soul, the very thing that makes a person.

Ahh, Dix. I'm proud of you. :good4u:

Note to those who have debated Dixie in the past. Let's give him a big hand. :clap:

As we enjoy a holiday weekend in the Great White North (Queen Victoria's Birthday) or Patriot's Day in Quebec (Journée nationale des patriotes) my sweety and I celebrate as that was the day we met in a park. I wasn't familiar to the area so after sitting on a bench for a while she said, "Let's go for a walk. Follow me", as she was familiar with the area.

Well, as she got up from the bench and started to walk away I noticed the most subtle wiggle, barely discernable, but from that moment, like an antenna mast, I beamed in on the signal. And like the gentleman I am I rose to the occasion. :)
 
So abortion merely eliminates the "physical vessel (that) is product of human conception, that has not a thing to do with your soul or where it comes from."
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Abortion eliminates the vessel which holds the soul. It's as if you are sinking boats on the high seas, claiming that you aren't effecting the lives of the people on board, you are merely sinking their boats. In other words, this takes the cake for most preposterous and outrageous strawman ever constructed! Well done!
 
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