Question for Pro-choicers

[Damocles]

This thread kinda makes one wonder why the current administration is trying to take national guard control away from the states.......

That happened long ago when they were nationalized. This isn't any new thing with this Admin...

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Tell me about it. Thus the feeling that America will break up in my lifetime.

Immie

Honestly, I doubt it will. Things will have to get much, much worse before that happens. Ultimately, I believe that some drastic reorganization or breakup is inevitable: once you've started down the road to empire there's no going back. Except in my more . . . colorful, let's say . . . moments, though, I don't think it's going to happen within the next 60 or 70 years.

Consider what Tiana so aptly said about the complacency of the American people. We are profoundly lazy, if that's not an oxymoron.

 

[Immanuel]

Honestly, I doubt it will. Things will have to get much, much worse before that happens. Ultimately, I believe that some drastic reorganization or breakup is inevitable: once you've started down the road to empire there's no going back. Except in my more . . . colorful, let's say . . . moments, though, I don't think it's going to happen within the next 60 or 70 years.

Consider what Tiana so aptly said about the complacency of the American people. We are profoundly lazy, if that's not an oxymoron.

You are my age. Think back to what life was like when we were kids. Think back to what your parents told you of their lives. Think of all the progress that has happened in the last 100 years and how the rate of progress is increasing exponentially. Then tell me this can't happen in the next 40 years.

Immie

 

[OrnotBitwise]

You are my age. Think back to what life was like when we were kids. Think back to what your parents told you of their lives. Think of all the progress that has happened in the last 100 years and how the rate of progress is increasing exponentially. Then tell me this can't happen in the next 40 years.

Immie

I didn't say "can't", I said "won't." That's not the same thing. I think that the odds are it won't happen until about the end of this century. Gut feeling, I know.

I do think back to my childhood. Often. You know what I remember most? I remember that the country was far more divided and polarized then than it is today. Things came within the proverbial hair's bredth of open rebellion and/or military coup in the late 60s and early 70s. In a way, I saw it from both sides. I remember my dad standing in the door of his lab, defending the projects there from an angry mob. I remember friends dealing with the Weather Underground -- yeah, really. I remember contemplating the WU a lot in college. Yet few people were willing to step over that last line, myself included.

Was it just because there were too frightened or because they hadn't lost faith in the United States completely? In the end, the two answers are one and the same.

 

[Immanuel]

I didn't say "can't", I said "won't." That's not the same thing. I think that the odds are it won't happen until about the end of this century. Gut feeling, I know.

I do think back to my childhood. Often. You know what I remember most? I remember that the country was far more divided and polarized then than it is today. Things came within the proverbial hair's bredth of open rebellion and/or military coup in the late 60s and early 70s. In a way, I saw it from both sides. I remember my dad standing in the door of his lab, defending the projects there from an angry mob. I remember friends dealing with the Weather Underground -- yeah, really. I remember contemplating the WU a lot in college. Yet few people were willing to step over that last line, myself included.

Was it just because there were too frightened or because they hadn't lost faith in the United States completely? In the end, the two answers are one and the same.

Well, when it happens, I will say I told you so. I really do hope it does not happen.

Immie

 

[Brent]

Even I have shifted to the left on that issue.

Not on my beliefs about the issue but on my beliefs about the other side. I used to think that they were thrilled to death every time a woman entered a clinic for an abortion. Now, I can see that this is not true. Just as I agree with the ideas of Welfare and Social Security but differ from them in regards to how these ideas should be implemented, they (the vast majority of them) too seem to share the repulsion I have at the thought of abortion, but they have different ideas on how eliminating them should be accomplished.

Immie

You think abortion doctors want to want to see abortions reduced? Somehow, I doubt that. Abortionists depend on murdering babies -- it's their livelihood.

No, many pro-choicers don't believe unborn babies are life to begin with, so I don't think we share with them the same degree of sorrow. To them, sorrow might be similar to what we feel when we see a dead possum on the road. To us, we recognize that a sentient being, created in the image of God, has been shamelessly destroyed.

Remember the "clump of cells" arugment? Do you think they feel compassion for a "clump of cells," and sadness when it is destroyed?

 

[Immanuel]

You think abortion doctors want to want to see abortions reduced? Somehow, I doubt that. Abortionists depend on murdering babies -- it's their livelihood.

No, many pro-choicers don't believe unborn babies are life to begin with, so I don't think we share with them the same degree of sorrow. To them, sorrow might be similar to what we feel when we see a dead possum on the road. To us, we recognize that a sentient being, created in the image of God, has been shamelessly destroyed.

Remember the "clump of cells" arugment? Do you think they feel compassion for a "clump of cells," and sadness when it is destroyed?

I said the vast majority not all. Abortion doctors are different plus there is a conflict of interest in their case.

Did I say same degree of sorrow?

As for the pro-choicers don't believe argument, that is an attempt on their side to deflect guilt feeling and make themselves feel better. It also cannot be said that we do not do the same thing. We use the "murderer" emotional argument and gross pictures to bash them in the face with.

But, when you speak to a rational pro-choicer, Maineman, for one you can see that they have reasons for opposing governmental intervention into the womb of a woman. They would prefer abortion be non-existant, but they object to our intervention.

I don't agree with them but that does not mean that they jump for joy at the deaths of these children.

Immie

 

[OrnotBitwise]

I said the vast majority not all. Abortion doctors are different plus there is a conflict of interest in their case.

Did I say same degree of sorrow?

As for the pro-choicers don't believe argument, that is an attempt on their side to deflect guilt feeling and make themselves feel better. It also cannot be said that we do not do the same thing. We use the "murderer" emotional argument and gross pictures to bash them in the face with.

But, when you speak to a rational pro-choicer, Maineman, for one you can see that they have reasons for opposing governmental intervention into the womb of a woman. They would prefer abortion be non-existant, but they object to our intervention.

I don't agree with them but that does not mean that they jump for joy at the deaths of these children.

Immie

Great Caesar's ghost! Did a pro-lifer just admit that pro-choice people aren't necessarily cold-blooded baby killers? Damn! No wonder my feet got cold all of a sudden.



I will point out, just to keep things interesting, that at least in this state, there are no such things as "abortion doctors." There are doctors and clinics that perform abortions but none who do nothing but abortions.

 

[Immanuel]

Great Caesar's ghost! Did a pro-lifer just admit that pro-choice people aren't necessarily cold-blooded baby killers? Damn! No wonder my feet got cold all of a sudden.



I will point out, just to keep things interesting, that at least in this state, there are no such things as "abortion doctors." There are doctors and clinics that perform abortions but none who do nothing but abortions.

Did I really do that? I must be having a bad day!

What difference does it make whether they are called abortion doctors, abortionists or a sub-class of OB/GYNs. They do kill human beings.

Immie

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Did I really do that? I must be having a bad day!

What difference does it make whether they are called abortion doctors, abortionists or a sub-class of OB/GYNs. They do kill human beings.

Immie

Only in traffic accidents or cases of malpractice.

Brent's implication -- and one I see often promulgated by some in the anti-choice camp -- is that there are "abortion doctors" out there who do nothing other than abortions. This is a myth. That's "myth" in the sense of something untrue, not in the literal sense. Well, in the literal sense too, but I digress.

 

[Damocles]

It depends on what state you live in. In some there really are doctors that solely do that for a living.

I would define "Abortion Doctor" as a doctor who is willing to perform elective abortions.

 

[OrnotBitwise]

It depends on what state you live in. In some there really are doctors that solely do that for a living.

I would define "Abortion Doctor" as a doctor who is willing to perform elective abortions.

You sure about that? I don't have the facts to dispute it but I wouldn't have thought it would be economically feasible. Maybe in a state where there's only one willing doctor for every million citizens . . . .

My point is that if you define "abortion doctor" as anyone who's willing to perform elective abortions then the term is both misleading and kind of pointless. In this state, anyway: it's basically synonymous with OB/GYN. Most OBs perform one or two every few years, perhaps. It's really an outpatient procedure, but some women insist on having their OB/GYN do it.

As the term is used, it implies someone who does these procedures regularly or as a specialty. That is misleading.

 

[LadyT]

Doctors that perform abortions are usually ob/gyns. They would make far more money treating the woman for nine months then they do performing an abortion. To say that they are financially motivated is a anti-choice myth.

 

[LadyT]

You sure about that? I don't have the facts to dispute it but I wouldn't have thought it would be economically feasible. Maybe in a state where there's only one willing doctor for every million citizens . . . .

My point is that if you define "abortion doctor" as anyone who's willing to perform elective abortions then the term is both misleading and kind of pointless. In this state, anyway: it's basically synonymous with OB/GYN. Most OBs perform one or two every few years, perhaps. It's really an outpatient procedure, but some women insist on having their OB/GYN do it.

As the term is used, it implies someone who does these procedures regularly or as a specialty. That is misleading.

you beat me to it!

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Doctors that perform abortions are usually ob/gyns. They would make far more money treating the woman for nine months then they do performing an abortion. To say that they are financially motivated is a anti-choice myth.

Excellent point. There really is no financial incentive for most doctors to do an abortion. Such an incentive would apply only in the case of those mythical abortion mills.

 

[Damocles]

Doctors that perform abortions are usually ob/gyns. They would make far more money treating the woman for nine months then they do performing an abortion. To say that they are financially motivated is a anti-choice myth.

Actually, if they can convince them to get pregnant every two or three months or so and abort the child they'd make far more money... But I digress...

BTW - Don't go jumping all over me for that, I don't think that is their goal...

OB/Gyn's are FAR less likely to get sued over an abortion case than they are over a birth. Many people no longer enter that field because of the HUGE cost of the insurance one has to carry....

 

[OrnotBitwise]

you beat me to it!

I live but to serve.

 

[Damocles]

You sure about that? I don't have the facts to dispute it but I wouldn't have thought it would be economically feasible. Maybe in a state where there's only one willing doctor for every million citizens . . . .

M'eh... The only reason I think it is true is because of the guy they showed on the news who performs all of the abortions for a certain area... I don't even remember which area... It could be wrong. It wouldn't matter. My objection would never rest on this, and the Term "Abortion Doctor" isn't something that I would really use.

My point is that if you define "abortion doctor" as anyone who's willing to perform elective abortions then the term is both misleading and kind of pointless.

No, it isn't. There are many OB/Gyns that simply won't perform an elective abortion they should be separated from those that will.

In this state, anyway: it's basically synonymous with OB/GYN. Most OBs perform one or two every few years, perhaps. It's really an outpatient procedure, but some women insist on having their OB/GYN do it.

As the term is used, it implies someone who does these procedures regularly or as a specialty. That is misleading.

I don't believe that it is. I don't think it implies that.

 

[OrnotBitwise]

No, it isn't. There are many OB/Gyns that simply won't perform an elective abortion they should be separated from those that will.

I deal with OB/GYNs all the time in the course of business and I've never run across one who won't, but I'll grant you this point -- at least provisionally. I have to, considering how contemptuous I've been of people who generalize from their personal experience.

 

[Immanuel]

I deal with OB/GYNs all the time in the course of business and I've never run across one who won't, but I'll grant you this point -- at least provisionally. I have to, considering how contemptuous I've been of people who generalize from their personal experience.

Well, when my wife interviewed her OB/GYN in Florida, she specifically asked the doctor if he/she performed abortions. The first ones that she spoke to said yes. My wife moved on to the next until we found one who said he did not. He is still her doctor and the doctor of several other people whom we know.

Immie