Reality check on electric cars

QP! said:
Because Terry, prior to Tesla and for most of the early years of Tesla the technology and infrastructure were not there for EV's.

It was the same for ICE for over a 100 years against Horse and Buggy. Farmers and other could make fuel and even carry it around and yet the ICE vehicle made almost zero advancements against the Horse and Buggy which dominated the market until advances and infrastructure made the ICE vehicle cheaper, more accessible and convenient due to gas stations and roads advancements.


Just as ICE numbers went in a straight line up and to the right paralleling those advancements we now see the same exact up and to the right adoption of EV's world wide as their advancements are now finally happening.

And that is undeniable.

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How much of that is due to government subsidies and mandates?
 
But... but .,.. @T. A. Gardner will read the below and just hand wave away that Oil and Gas and ICE Auto manufacturers ever get subsidies or bail outs. He will say ONLY 'renewables' do.


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AI Summary:
Examining all forms of taxpayer money use for corporate bailouts + direct subsidies + tax breaks (indirect subsidies), the industries that dominate receiving U.S. taxpayer support are listed below.


Here’s the big picture, grounded in the best available data and historical events:



🥇 1) Finance / Banking (largest in bailout terms)​


Why it ranks #1: massive, one-time crisis interventions dwarf everything else.


  • The 2008 Financial Crisis bailout (TARP) alone authorized $700 billion (with trillions in Fed liquidity support on top).
  • During COVID, the Federal Reserve and Treasury again provided trillions in backstops, loans, and asset purchases.

👉 Key point:


  • Finance doesn’t always get the most annual subsidies, but it has received the largest cumulative emergency support in history.


🥈 2) Housing / Real Estate / Mortgages​


Why it’s huge: mostly indirect subsidies baked into the system.


  • Mortgage interest tax deduction (tens to hundreds of billions annually in foregone revenue)
  • Government-backed entities like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
  • Bailouts during 2008 housing collapse

👉 Economists often argue this is one of the largest long-term subsidy systems, even though it’s less visible.



🥉 3) Energy (fossil fuels + renewables)​


Why it’s high: steady, multi-decade support via tax policy.


  • Fossil fuel subsidies: about $31–$35 billion/year
  • Renewable subsidies (tax credits, grants) have also surged into the tens of billions annually

👉 Key nuance:


  • Fossil fuels = long-standing tax advantages
  • Renewables = newer, rapidly growing subsidies
  • Combined, energy is consistently one of the largest subsidized sectors yearly


4) Agriculture (one of the oldest subsidy systems)​


Why it’s significant: permanent, policy-driven support.


  • ~$9–30+ billion per year depending on conditions
  • About $279 billion in commodity subsidies (1995–2024)

👉 Key point:


  • Agriculture is smaller annually than housing or healthcare, but:
    • Extremely consistent
    • Politically durable
    • Highly concentrated in certain crops (corn, soy, wheat)


5) Healthcare (massive but often overlooked as “subsidy”)​


Why it’s huge: indirect subsidies dominate.


  • Tax exclusion for employer-provided health insurance (one of the largest tax expenditures in the U.S.)
  • Programs like Medicaid/Medicare act as demand-side subsidies to the healthcare industry

👉 In many analyses, healthcare-related tax breaks and spending rival or exceed housing.



6) Defense & Aerospace / Industrial Policy​


Why it matters: not always labeled “subsidies,” but economically similar.


  • Defense contracts often function as guaranteed revenue streams
  • Bailouts/support for firms like auto companies (e.g., 2009 Auto Industry Bailout)

👉 Important distinction:


  • Economists debate whether this is “procurement” or “subsidy,” but the effect can be similar.


7) Transportation (autos, airlines, infrastructure)​


  • Airline bailouts after:
    • 9/11
    • COVID-19
  • Various Auto makers bailed out or given subsidies. some multiple times, since the companies founding
  • Highway system heavily subsidized beyond gas tax revenues

👉 This is a hybrid category: infrastructure + periodic bailouts.



8) Technology / Manufacturing (growing fast)​


  • Semiconductor subsidies (e.g., CHIPS Act)
  • EV tax credits and industrial policy

👉 Smaller historically, but rapidly expanding in the 2020s



🧠 The Big Insight (what really dominates)​


If you rank by different definitions, you get different winners:


By one-time bailouts​


  1. Finance (by far #1)
  2. Housing (via crisis support)
  3. Auto/airlines

By annual ongoing subsidies​


  1. Housing (tax breaks)
  2. Healthcare (tax exclusions)
  3. Energy
  4. Agriculture

By total long-term embedded support​


  1. Housing + healthcare (arguably #1 and #2 overall)
  2. Finance (due to crisis rescues)
  3. Energy
  4. Agriculture


⚖️ Bottom line​


  • Finance gets the biggest crisis-era taxpayer support.
  • Housing and healthcare likely receive the largest total ongoing subsidies when tax breaks are included.
  • Energy and agriculture are the most visible, long-standing subsidized industries.
  • A lot of the biggest subsidies are hidden in the tax code, not direct spending.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
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and yet the EV technology is young and IMPROVING so that video you posted is useless.

You might want to pay attention to this again.



Cliffs:
- 6 minutes for charges from 10% - 90%
- weight of batteries being dramatically reduced
- with reduced weight, range is greatly increasing and flying cars become a more real option
- batteries now are over coming issues with losing charge at deep cold temperatures (-50c)

Click to expand...

Do i have to remind you that improvements in ICE technology due to mass production and constant research have seen it go form 15mpg in early 1900's to +35MPG now.

I always tell you Terry, despite you denying it, that technology advancement is not stagnant despite you always saying it is and nothing new comes from it. Your view of technology is not only wrong but stupid.
 
There is a cost in ICEs that includes pollution, air land and water. There is a huge cost in healthcare due to breathing the polluted air and living in it. People who live around oil refineries live in cancer and lung disease zones. 20 percent of world deaths are due to coal, oil, and gas burning. We all live sicker, shorter, and dirtier lives because we use fossil fuels.
 
QP! said:
and yet the EV technology is young and IMPROVING so that video you posted is useless.

You might want to pay attention to this again.





Do i have to remind you that improvements in ICE technology due to mass production and constant research have seen it go form 15mpg in early 1900's to +35MPG now.

I always tell you Terry, despite you denying it, that technology advancement is not stagnant despite you always saying it is and nothing new comes from it. Your view of technology is not only wrong but stupid.
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You cannot get around chemistry. Batteries operate on chemical properties and chemistry.
 
Nordberg said:
There is a cost in ICEs that includes pollution, air land and water. There is a huge cost in healthcare due to breathing the polluted air and living in it. People who live around oil refineries live in cancer and lung disease zones. 20 percent of world deaths are due to coal, oil, and gas burning. We all live sicker, shorter, and dirtier lives because we use fossil fuels.
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If you believe the envirotards on the Left, that is. While some of this is true, it isn't the disaster they make it out to be. AlGore, one of their top prophets has made all sorts of idiotic claims about this, for example.

As for the "20 percent" thing, I perused several of the studies on that. I think they're full of shit and can't prove any of what they claim with any level of accuracy.
 
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