Science from the other side of Climate Change

[Uncensored2008]

Please provide me with the ACTUAL paper. I can actually read science papers since I am a trained scientist. Please share the paper.

Because what I see here is NOT a prediction about the ultimate end of the earth, but rather something related to what scientists call a "Clathrate Gun". This is an idea that destabilizing clathrates (which form in deep cold water where ice recrystallizes in a cubic form encasing methane, a VERY VERY powerful greenhouse gas), could cause a massive pulse of extremely powerful (as in about 20X more powerful than CO2 as I recall) could very quickly speed up climate change in a CATASTROPHIC SENSE. (Don't worry if you don't understand crystallography or chemistry, I can help you find resources that will explain these things to you in a simple manner you will be able to grasp)

Of course I would need for you to share the full article with me, but you certainly don't understand the topic. Meanwhile I do.

Why do you run so fast to POP SCI articles rather than taking it directly from the horse's mouth? Why do you avoid what the SCIENTISTS say in preference to what some non-scientist journo in the UK thinks the scientists mean?




All you need to know about how your government REALLY feels about the reality of climate change you can determine by seeing what people who don't have a dog in the fight as to whether it is real or not are acting. The military clearly thinks it's a real thing. You don't.

The military is trying to protect you. I hope you'll let them.



And I've been a trained earth scientist and chemist for 42. I know more about this stuff than you do because I READ THE ACTUAL SCIENCE, not just the pop-sci shit dumbed down for non-scientists.

Bullshit.

First off, I hold an Sc.D. I assume you have an AA. But beyond that, Climatology is less real science than cosmetology is. 50 years of failure is not a track record for your religion to be proud of.

You are an insider in the con job?

As a refresher,

One day Og awoke and wandered out of his lean-to only to discover that the mountain to the east was billowing smoke. Og became very frightened. He turned to his wife and said "mountain smoke, Og scared."

The wife met with all the other women while chewing hides and none of them could figure out why the mountain was smoking. So Og went to Algore, the village Shaman and said "why mountain smoke?" Algore shook a rattle and chanted some mumbo jumbo and then declared "The volcano god is angry because Og has too much food and life is too easy."

Algore went on "Og must make a sacrifice - as must every other villager. Bring me 9/10ths of all food and furs that you have, and I must also have your virgin daughters to appease the gods. If you do not give these to me, you will die, and not only you but EVERYONE in the village."

Og was very afraid. He loved his daughter, but how could he let everyone die? Besides, if he gave the Shaman 9/10th of his food to throw in the volcano, along with his daughter, he would have no food to feed his children and she would starve to death anyway.

So Og and the villagers gave Algore what he demanded. Algore gorged himself on the food and raped the girls for a month, then trudged up the mountain, raped Og's daughter again, murdered her, and threw her in the volcano. He did the same to the daughters of the other villagers.

Then Algore went back to the village and said that the gods were pleased, but in a year they would have to do it all again to keep pleasing the gods.

The next day, the volcano erupted and killed everyone in the village.

MORAL:

The volcano was real. Algore the Shaman had no more understanding of it than Og did, but he saw an opportunity to get the wealth and children of the villagers by leveraging their fear.

None of the sacrifices made by Og did anything - other than satiate Algore's lust and greed.

And THIS is what Anthropogenic Global Warming is today, Shamans taking everything from suckers based on fear.

 

[IBDaMann]

You've lost it.

You never had it.

 

[AProudLefty]

You never had it.

So you say.

 

[IBDaMann]

I can actually read science papers since I am a trained scientist.

Any rational adult can read a science paper. Your claim of being a scientist, however, is discarded. You're a warmizombie; your scientific illiteracy is firmly established.

Because what I see here is NOT a prediction about the ultimate end of the earth, but rather something related to what scientists call a "Clathrate Gun".

@JPP, Daylight63 is raving his ZANY religion again. His dogma is based on violations of thermodynamics and of Stefan-Boltzmann, i.e. that an atmospheric substance can magickally cause the earth to spontaneously increase in temperature (see my signature). Using these violations as an underlying basis, he and his scientifically illiterate ilk have concocted a sci-fi fantasy horror story whereby Earth is a ticking timebomb (tailored for fear and panic) with vast quantities of super-duper greenhouse gas ready to seep out into the atmosphere when the timer runs out, causing earth's temperature to spiral out of control and fry us all like sauteed mushrooms.

Oh, they call it the "Clathrate Gun" because that sounds somewhat chemistrishy. If you take any part of it seriously, you have only yourself to blame.

This is an idea that destabilizing clathrates (which form in deep cold water where ice recrystallizes in a cubic form encasing methane, a VERY VERY powerful greenhouse gas), could cause a massive pulse of extremely powerful (as in about 20X more powerful than CO2 as I recall) could very quickly speed up climate change in a CATASTROPHIC SENSE.

... and then "BOOM" ... the world goes nuclear ... but even more catastrophic. @JPP, If you fall for it, it's totally your own fault, and everybody will have full rights to mock and ridicule you.

(Don't worry if you don't understand crystallography or chemistry, I can help you find resources that will explain these things to you in a simple manner you will be able to grasp)

@Daylight63, I can only recommend some physics classes at a local junior college. Your misunderstanding runs deep, and a few minutes with Wikipedia isn't going to help you.

In short, no, there are no scientists pursuing this sci-fi fantasy of yours.

Of course I would need for you to share the full article with me, but you certainly don't understand the topic. Meanwhile I do.

I understand the Star Wars saga, and that doesn't make it real.

Why do you run so fast to POP SCI articles rather than taking it directly from the horse's mouth?

Why do you avoid science in order to pursue a stupid fantasy? Why do you avoid what actual SCIENTISTS say in preference to what your warmizombie brethren order you to believe?

All you need to know about how your government REALLY feels about the reality of climate change you can determine by seeing what people who don't have a dog in the fight as to whether it is real or not are acting. The military clearly thinks it's a real thing. You don't.

The military doesn't consider it at all. Of course, you wouldn't know how to tell one way or the other.

The military is trying to protect you. I hope you'll let them.

How do you imagine that the military is working to protect anyone regarding Climate Change? I have a bunch of mockery planned out for you on this one.

And I've been a trained earth scientist and chemist for 42.

I'm probably not the only one who laughs at the idea of you imagining yourself as a scientist. Say it with me "It'th thettled theinth!"

I know more about this stuff than you do because I READ THE ACTUAL SCIENCE, not just the pop-sci shit dumbed down for non-scientists.

You don't know any science.

 

[IBDaMann]

So you say.

So I observe.

 

[IBDaMann]

Well, OK! Thanks! It's rare to see someone type so much and say so LITTLE. How do you do it? Do you NEED to be uninformed, uneducated and basically stupid like you are or did you have to work at this skill?

I see you're already tipping your king. Let me know if you'd like to play again.

 

[ADreamOfLiberty]

Here's what we KNOW for certain:

2. CO2 and other greenhouse gases make up a small part of the atmosphere but are the reason the surface of the earth is about 30degC hotter than if there were no greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

This is not known for certain.

The atmosphere cannot be discarded, even if it was transparent to relevant bands of thermal radiation.

Here's what we KNOW for certain:

4. We know chemically that the majority of this additional added CO2 is coming from human activities.

This is not known for certain. Deep water dissolved carbon isotope distribution has not been surveyed with enough completeness to differentiate it from buried hydrocarbon ratios (which themselves vary)

When we have excess H2O in the atmosphere the excess can quickly be eliminated through the HYDROLOGIC CYCLE which acts quickly to rebalance the amount of H2O in the atmosphere.

which doesn't matter at all since the variations in humidity are thousands of times (in density and concentration) that of the total difference in carbon dioxide that is supposedly man made.

Warm temperatures lead to rapid evaporation and higher humidity which should increase the "greenhouse effect", but water condensate (clouds) is also proportional to humidity and that acts as a mirror for most of the solar spectrum causing a cooling effect on average.

The density and thermal inertia changes that accompany rain and hot humid air rising vastly strengthen or weaken convection heat transfer.

The water system defies simple analysis, that's why we can't predict weather.

Carbon dioxide (and any other trace gas) is an insignificant perturbation to this system. Convection to the upper atmosphere where the IR is emitted to space was, is, and will be the dominant power transfer route.

Even in high dry deserts the atmosphere has been a pea soup for the relevant wavelengths. That part of the power transfer from the surface which has been direct radiation from surface to space has, is, and will be in the IR windows that no gas impedes.

And I've been a trained earth scientist and chemist for 42.

No excuses then.

 

[Litmus]

I didn’t read much of the OP but it sounded like ZM is kinda on our side in that the MIT guys are saying “don’t worry the sky isn’t falling”.

he's a fucking neocon never Trumper globalist douche.

 

[ZenMode]

DON'T BLAME YOUR PROBLEM ON IBDAMANN OR ANYONE ELSE, VOID!

I'm not.

 

[ZenMode]

You are desperately trying to! You can't laugh your way out of your problem, Void.

Again...I have no problems. I'm trying to look at both sides of the discussion.

What I'm not doing is:

1. Pretending scientists don't exist
2. Pretending I know more than the actual scientists who study this topic
3. Claiming that there is a clear answer either way
4. Pretending that just saying things makes them true
5. Pretending that scientific laws apply when they don't
6. Misusing scientific laws

....for starters.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Again...I have no problems. I'm trying to look at both sides of the discussion.

What I'm not doing is:

1. Pretending scientists don't exist

What you are doing is pretending "science" is a religion to be accepted on faith,

1. Pretending I know more than the actual scientists who study this topic

AGW is a con. Some have caught on the to scam.

1. Claiming that there is a clear answer either way

The clear answer is the Green crowd are grifters and crooks scamming billions of dollars based on complete bullshit. AGW is the oldest con on earth - nothing but the Volcano God grift/

1. Pretending that just saying things makes them true

That is precisely what you do with your AGW shamans. Even when we repeatedly expose them as the frauds and grifters they are.

1. Pretending that scientific laws apply when they don't

Because "science" to the AGW sheeple is a religion - not a process of discovery and falsification...

LOL

1. Misusing scientific laws

....for starters.

Misusing.... ROFL

 

[ZenMode]

What you are doing is pretending "science" is a religion to be accepted on faith,



AGW is a con. Some have caught on the to scam.



The clear answer is the Green crowd are grifters and crooks scamming billions of dollars based on complete bullshit. AGW is the oldest con on earth - nothing but the Volcano God grift/



That is precisely what you do with your AGW shamans. Even when we repeatedly expose them as the frauds and grifters they are.

View attachment 37367



Because "science" to the AGW sheeple is a religion - not a process of discovery and falsification...

LOL




Misusing.... ROFL

You also cannot make things true simply by saying them. Calling global warming a religion also does not impact whether or not it is real, which is something that we don't know for certain.

The fact that there are grifters trying to make money off of global warming does not change the reality of global warming, whatever that may be. The fact that Trump is a shameless rifter does not mean that he's not president.

 

[IBDaMann]

Again...I have no problems. I'm trying to look at both sides of the discussion.

Nope. There are many "sides" but you refuse to consider anything that involves actual science.

What I'm not doing is:
[*]Pretending scientists don't exist

You are pretending that scientifically illiterate religious zealots are scientists.

[*]Pretending I know more than the actual scientists who study this topic

You are pretending that you somehow are the world's top physicists, that you/they somehow study your WACKY religion and that you somehow speak for them, ... all the while avoiding any and all science because you don't understand any.

[*]Claiming that there is a clear answer either way

At least you admit that you don't know what the correct answer is, just that you won't accept any correct answer when it is provided to you.

[*]Pretending that just saying things makes them true

Yes, this is what you do.

[*]Pretending that scientific laws apply when they don't

You pretend that science doesn't apply when it does.

[*]Misusing scientific laws

You simply deny them ... because they run counter to your WACKY religion.

 

[Litmus]

Again...I have no problems. I'm trying to look at both sides of the discussion.

What I'm not doing is:

1. Pretending scientists don't exist
2. Pretending I know more than the actual scientists who study this topic
3. Claiming that there is a clear answer either way
4. Pretending that just saying things makes them true
5. Pretending that scientific laws apply when they don't
6. Misusing scientific laws

....for starters.

you're trying to keep the Nazi dream of green eco-fascism alive.

you're a retarded yutz.

 

[Litmus]

a cherry picked and misconstrued review of actual science papers is not science!

 

[ZenMode]

you're trying to keep the Nazi dream of green eco-fascism alive.

you're a retarded yutz.

People's responses to, or suggestions regarding, climate change are 100% irrelevant to whether or not it is real.

AOC could double the stupidity of her green New deal and that would not impact reality in the slightest.

 

[Litmus]

People's responses to, or suggestions regarding, climate change are 100% irrelevant to whether or not it is real.

AOC could double these stupidity of her green New deal and that would not impact reality in the slightest.

...said the shill.

 

[Uncensored2008]

You also cannot make things true simply by saying them.

Your church has done exactly that for 50 plus years.



Oh wait, that was the NY Times, they lie about everything...

ROFL

Calling global warming a religion also does not impact whether or not it is real, which is something that we don't know for certain.

You accept on faith, not only with no evidence to support your faith, but mountains of evidence refuting it.

The fact that there are grifters trying to make money off of global warming does not change the reality of global warming, whatever that may be. The fact that Trump is a shameless rifter does not mean that he's not president.

In 50 years, despite all the hyperbole of the Church of AGW, the aggregate temperature of the planet hasn't change. Sea levels have remained static, Plymouth rock is the exact same number of centimeters from that water as it was 100 years . While the Shamans of your cult are quick to harald any increase in regional temperatures as proof that Gia is angry and punishing non-believers for carbon sins, the Shamans fail to denote the regions where temperatures have declined.

 

[ZenMode]

Your church has done exactly that for 50 plus years.

View attachment 37385

Oh wait, that was the NY Times, they lie about everything...

ROFL



You accept on faith, not only with no evidence to support your faith, but mountains of evidence refuting it.




In 50 years, despite all the hyperbole of the Church of AGW, the aggregate temperature of the planet hasn't change. Sea levels have remained static, Plymouth rock is the exact same number of centimeters from that water as it was 100 years . While the Shamans of your cult are quick to harald any increase in regional temperatures as proof that Gia is angry and punishing non-believers for carbon sins, the Shamans fail to denote the regions where temperatures have declined.

The fact that you and many others choose not to educate yourself on the topic, doesn't mean that I accept anything on faith.

 

[Daylight63]

This is not known for certain.

Yeah it is. It's physics. The majority of the gases in the atmosphere (O2 and N2) do NOT absorb IR in any significant fashion. That's because those are diatomic molecules that have NO DIPOLE MOMENT, and as such don't really have any IR-absorptive bands. IR absorbs because of the BONDS between elements in the molecule. SInce O2 is O=O and N2 is N=N so they don't really have any ability to absorb.

That would mean that incoming short-wave radiation (most of what comes from the sun to us) is absorbed by the solid earth and re-radiated out back as "downshifted" photons in the IR range (lower energy because they are longer wavelengths. The IR photons could then easily re-escape back out into the atmosphere leaving the surface at effectively the blackbody radiation temperature which trurns out to be calculable by Stefan-Boltzman and is about 30degC lower than our actual surface temperature.

The atmosphere cannot be discarded, even if it was transparent to relevant bands of thermal radiation.

No one is discarding the atmosphere. It is kind of the MAIN PART OF THE GAME.

This is not known for certain. Deep water dissolved carbon isotope distribution has not been surveyed with enough completeness

Wrong. It has been studied. While I haven't personally studied the isotope data from the deep ocean I was involved in a research cruise in the north Atlantic about 30 years ago in which we were measuring a tracer gas dissolved in the ocean and were tracking a current that dipped down to the bottom of the n. Atlantic off the coast of Greenland to the NADW and we brought up water samples to measure for our gas of interest. You simply cannot tell me that we don't know about the carbon isotope fractionation in the deep water CO2.

which doesn't matter at all since the variations in humidity are thousands of times (in density and concentration) that of the total difference in carbon dioxide that is supposedly man made.

It is a feedback, not a forcing. It doesn't stick around in the atmosphere as long as CO2. Which means it's ability to significantly and long-term affect the overall temperature is limited.

The good folks at MIT can explain it. It is not trivial, but it is a rather different impact:

Why do we blame climate change on carbon dioxide, when water vapor is a much more common greenhouse gas?

Extra water vapor we put in the atmosphere doesn’t last long enough to change the long-term temperature of our planet. But water does play a major supporting role in climate change.

climate.mit.edu

Carbon dioxide (and any other trace gas) is an insignificant perturbation to this system.

Wrong. Climate sensitivity studies (which also include DIRECT MEASUREMENT METHODS) show that CO2 is a very important greenhouse gas.

Here's a graph of relative climate sensitivities of greenhouse gases etc.:

This is an ensemble study which also explains HOW the estimates are made. You can find it here: https://www.nature.com/articles/ngeo337

Convection to the upper atmosphere where the IR is emitted to space was, is, and will be the dominant power transfer route.

And, the reason the entire global warming is happening is because the greenhouse effect basically just pushes the point at which the IR photons re-escape back out into space to higher and higher elevations where transfer is less efficient because of less gas molecules per square foot.

This IS the greenhouse effect in a nutshell.