Science Is Libertarian

monty1 is the ONLY person I've met on this forum that knows anything about global politics. This is fact. No one here knows a thing about global politics except him.

I won't vouch for everything he says but I guarantee he knows more about it than you. He's only trying to inform others.

I'm advanced in global politics and know you have to ease it in..The American people have no clue what the CIA is doing even if they can use an internet search to figure it out. The rest of the world knows what we are up to and doesn't need to do that search.

I love that Anti-Party claims to have this knowledge about what our government is doing around the world while telling someone who served in the U.S. military overseas during war that he knows nothing about our government's actions.

I believe Bud Light made a Real Man of Genius commercial about arm chair warriors like Anti-Party.
 
I love that Anti-Party claims to have this knowledge about what our government is doing around the world while telling someone who served in the U.S. military overseas during war that he knows nothing about our government's actions.

I believe Bud Light made a Real Man of Genius commercial about arm chair warriors like Anti-Party.

I really wish you wouldn't quote him, it ruins the whole point of my ignore list.
 
Pretty sure that Tom knows stuff about international affairs, given that he's British rather than American, utilizes BBC/Guardian/Daily Mail/etc. for his news, and so forth...
 
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-we-should-choose-science-over-beliefs&page=2

Why We Should Choose Science over Beliefs
Ideology needs to give way


By Michael Shermer



Ever since college I have been a libertarian—socially liberal and fiscally conservative. I believe in individual liberty and personal responsibility. I also believe in science as the greatest instrument ever devised for understanding the world. So what happens when these two principles are in conflict? My libertarian beliefs have not always served me well. Like most people who hold strong ideological convictions, I find that, too often, my beliefs trump the scientific facts. This is called motivated reasoning, in which our brain reasons our way to supporting what we want to be true. Knowing about the existence of motivated reasoning, however, can help us overcome it when it is at odds with evidence.


Take gun control. I always accepted the libertarian position of minimum regulation in the sale and use of firearms because I placed guns under the beneficial rubric of minimal restrictions on individuals. Then I read the science on guns and homicides, suicides and accidental shootings (summarized in my May column) and realized that the freedom for me to swing my arms ends at your nose. The libertarian belief in the rule of law and a potent police and military to protect our rights won't work if the citizens of a nation are better armed but have no training and few restraints. Although the data to convince me that we need some gun-control measures were there all along, I had ignored them because they didn't fit my creed. In several recent debates with economist John R. Lott, Jr., author of More Guns, Less Crime, I saw a reflection of my former self in the cherry picking and data mining of studies to suit ideological convictions. We all do it, and when the science is complicated, the confirmation bias (a type of motivated reasoning) that directs the mind to seek and find confirming facts and ignore disconfirming evidence kicks in.


My libertarianism also once clouded my analysis of climate change. I was a longtime skeptic, mainly because it seemed to me that liberals were exaggerating the case for global warming as a kind of secular millenarianism—an environmental apocalypse requiring drastic government action to save us from doomsday through countless regulations that would handcuff the economy and restrain capitalism, which I hold to be the greatest enemy of poverty. Then I went to the primary scientific literature on climate and discovered that there is convergent evidence from multiple lines of inquiry that global warming is real and human-caused: temperatures increasing, glaciers melting, Arctic ice vanishing, Antarctic ice cap shrinking, sea-level rise corresponding with the amount of melting ice and thermal expansion, carbon dioxide touching the level of 400 parts per million (the highest in at least 800,000 years and the fastest increase ever), and the confirmed prediction that if anthropogenic global warming is real the stratosphere and upper troposphere should cool while the lower troposphere should warm, which is the case.


The clash between scientific facts and ideologies was on display at the 2013 FreedomFest conference in Las Vegas—the largest gathering of libertarians in the world—where I participated in two debates, one on gun control and the other on climate change. I love FreedomFest because it supercharges my belief engine. But this year I was so discouraged by the rampant denial of science that I wanted to turn in my libertarian membership card. At the gun-control debate (as in my debates with Lott around the country), proposing even modest measures that would have almost no effect on freedom—such as background checks—brought on opprobrium as if I had burned a copy of the U.S. Constitution on stage. In the climate debate, when I showed that between 90 and 98 percent of climate scientists accept anthropogenic global warming, someone shouted, “LIAR!” and stormed out of the room.

Liberals and conservatives are motivated reasoners, too, of course, and not all libertarians deny science, but all of us are subject to the psychological forces at play when it comes to choosing between facts and beliefs when they do not mesh. In the long run, it is better to understand the way the world really is rather than how we would like it to be.
 
libertarians are not much better than the republicans as accepting cold hard facts and scientific results.

they and the republicans place their IDEAOLOGY over humans when push comes to shove.
 
libertarians are not much better than the republicans as accepting cold hard facts and scientific results.

they and the republicans place their IDEAOLOGY over humans when push comes to shove.

But not as bad as partisan Democrats who would have banned power lines and cell phones.
 
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If the extremists and anarchists were eliminated from those who claim to be libertarians, there would be little left to claim as a political ideology. It can best be described as a failing marriage of extremists from both the left and right whose original political parties wouldn't bow down to their extremism.

And of course, eventually their libertarians friends will betray them too because they have little in common. Extreme leftists and extreme rightists can never live together happily and that is the reason why the tea party will destroy itself from within. All fine except for the harm they cause to normal society in the process.
 
If the extremists and anarchists were eliminated from those who claim to be libertarians, there would be little left to claim as a political ideology. It can best be described as a failing marriage of extremists from both the left and right whose original political parties wouldn't bow down to their extremism.

And of course, eventually their libertarians friends will betray them too because they have little in common. Extreme leftists and extreme rightists can never live together happily and that is the reason why the tea party will destroy itself from within. All fine except for the harm they cause to normal society in the process.

That is nonsense. Libertarianism is more well defined than are the ideological foundations of the Republican or Democratic parties. Conservatives and progressives are just empty heads who ascribe to identity politics. Unfortunately, there are many fake libertarians, like Grind, who think libertarians should join the knee jerk culture war politics that have divided this nation.

Libertarianism is not about one issue. Certainly not about whether you accept the evidence for AGW. It's about an approach that views the fundamental question of proper government as being about the individual versus the state and not about this group vs that group.
 
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That is nonsense. Libertarianism is more well defined than are the ideological foundations of the Republican or Democratic parties. Conservatives and progressives are just empty heads who ascribe to identity politics. Unfortunately, there are many fake libertarians, like Grind, who think libertarians should join the knee jerk culture war politics that have divided this nation.

Libertarianism is not about one issue. Certainly not about whether you accept the evidence for AGW. It's about an approach that views the fundamental question of proper government as being about the individual versus the state and not about this group vs that group.

It may not be about one issue but subtract the racists from the ranks of the libertarians and you end up with very little left. I've seen this on RonPaul.com where the racism is sidelined for appearance sake and you are left with a ranting hippy type going up against a supplysider or some other adherent to fantasies of the past.

They are nothing but a bunch of disenfranchised angry haters and that makes their agenda impossible.

Yes, I know all about libertarians but that doesn't prevent you from voicing the old saw once again: We don't understand it!
If there's something we don't understand then it's because the libertarian hides behind keeping it all a great mystery. Phony pie in the sky assholes all. But alas, America's cheap politics has a place for even the most off-the-wall contrarian numbskulls.
 
It may not be about one issue but subtract the racists from the ranks of the libertarians and you end up with very little left. I've seen this on RonPaul.com where the racism is sidelined for appearance sake and you are left with a ranting hippy type going up against a supplysider or some other adherent to fantasies of the past.

They are nothing but a bunch of disenfranchised angry haters and that makes their agenda impossible.

Yes, I know all about libertarians but that doesn't prevent you from voicing the old saw once again: We don't understand it!
If there's something we don't understand then it's because the libertarian hides behind keeping it all a great mystery. Phony pie in the sky assholes all. But alas, America's cheap politics has a place for even the most off-the-wall contrarian numbskulls.

As far as i am concerned there are no racist libertarians. There are racist that pretend to be libertarian and some libertarians are far too tolerant of them. Racists are without exception collectivists while libertarians are individualists.

RonPaul.com is not the definition of libertarianism.

Keeping what a great mystery? Libertarianism? Wtf are you talking about?
 
As far as i am concerned there are no racist libertarians. There are racist that pretend to be libertarian and some libertarians are far too tolerant of them. Racists are without exception collectivists while libertarians are individualists.

RonPaul.com is not the definition of libertarianism.

Keeping what a great mystery? Libertarianism? Wtf are you talking about?

ROFL. No Offense, Prof. Baxter, but you've just stumbled into the "No true Scotsman" fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim ("no Scotsman would do such a thing"), rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing").

A simple rendition of the fallacy:[2]
Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person B: "I am Scottish, and put sugar on my porridge."
Person A: "Then you are not a true Scotsman."
An example of a political application of the fallacy could be in asserting that "no democracy starts a war", then distinguishing between mature or "true" democracies, which never start wars, and "emerging democracies", which may start them.[3] At issue is whether an "emerging democracy" is actually a democracy or occupies a differing conceptual category.

Origin:
The use of the term was advanced by British philosopher Antony Flew:
Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again". Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing". The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again; and, this time, finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing".[4]
 
As far as i am concerned there are no racist libertarians. There are racist that pretend to be libertarian and some libertarians are far too tolerant of them. Racists are without exception collectivists while libertarians are individualists.

RonPaul.com is not the definition of libertarianism.

Keeping what a great mystery? Libertarianism? Wtf are you talking about?

Too bad Baxter, the fact is that if you subtract out the racists who are claiming, rightly or wrongly to be libertarians, then you are left with a couple of ugly extremists ranting about yesterday's politics for losers.

RonPaul.com is about as good as the libertarian title gets. Without that as a front they disappear like a bad dream off of the political landscape. Be careful of what you wish for, your libertarianism is a title without any substance of support.

But you know all that don't you. You're just still dreaming of a brave new world, blah, blah, blah, that could have been or should have been. Dumb cocksuckers like you will tread water til the cows come home.

the great mystery that is libertarianism: Pretending that it's much deeper than the shallow hateful shit it really is. Cause we just don't understand ya know!
 
Too bad Baxter, the fact is that if you subtract out the racists who are claiming, rightly or wrongly to be libertarians, then you are left with a couple of ugly extremists ranting about yesterday's politics for losers.

RonPaul.com is about as good as the libertarian title gets. Without that as a front they disappear like a bad dream off of the political landscape. Be careful of what you wish for, your libertarianism is a title without any substance of support.

But you know all that don't you. You're just still dreaming of a brave new world, blah, blah, blah, that could have been or should have been. Dumb cocksuckers like you will tread water til the cows come home.

Name one book you have read on libertarianism? Do you have an article you found representative?

You are full of hot air and little more.
 
Name one book you have read on libertarianism? Do you have an article you found representative?

You are full of hot air and little more.

Some by Rothbard, Friedman, and Wanniski. Also took part on the supplysideforum for about ten years with the real libertarians who came along way before the baggers and haters. don't ask questions when you're not prepared for the answer.
But admit it now, you're just another tea bagger fucking loser and hater who hasn't the slightest idea of what the libertarian title even stands for. I see that at least some of the other losers on this forum also have your number already too. Now go play with the teenagers because you aren't qualified to talk with the adults about anything more complicated than your summer vacation.
 
Some by Rothbard, Friedman, and Wanniski. Also took part on the supplysideforum for about ten years with the real libertarians who came along way before the baggers and haters. don't ask questions when you're not prepared for the answer.
But admit it now, you're just another tea bagger fucking loser and hater who hasn't the slightest idea of what the libertarian title even stands for. I see that at least some of the other losers on this forum also have your number already too. Now go play with the teenagers because you aren't qualified to talk with the adults about anything more complicated than your summer vacation.

Okay, so quickly explain the difference between Rothbard and Friedman view on the cause of the great depression?

Ten years ago you were supplying a diaper bin and the quality of your output has decreased.

I have been a libertarian since 94.
 
ROFL. No Offense, Prof. Baxter, but you've just stumbled into the "No true Scotsman" fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

no true Scotsman isn't meant to imply that any time you call someone "not something" you are committing a logical fallacy. the libertarian party has a concrete philosophy and a concrete platform, with concrete issues that they believe in. If you deviate from those issues you cannot just attach any label to yourself and call no true Scotsman on anyone that disagrees.

ron paul is a self professed republican, he also fails to support things like a woman's right to choose. One might be able to call him libertarian-esque or closest to a libertarian philosophy among republicans, but he deviates from significant parts of the libertarian platform.
 
ROFL. No Offense, Prof. Baxter, but you've just stumbled into the "No true Scotsman" fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

No true Scotsman is French. There is a fundamental point here. You can't be an individualist and a collectivist at the same time. Racism is collectivist.

Further, most of the racist that pretend to be libertarians are actually neoconfederates. They are primarily proponents of States rights, not just as a way to divide power, but they believe that the state has a moral right to infringe upon the rights of the individual. They support libertarianism only at the level of the federal government and abandon it at lower levels.

Also, monty has not produced one libertarian that is racist much less that all of them are. He is as vague as his buddy pmp. I am sure he will point to Ron Paul and I would say it is debatable that he is a racist and or libertarian. He is somewhat libertarian and I won't bother to fully disclaim him. He is hardly the prototypical libertarian and he has been way too tolerant of racists and other nuts.
 
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No true Scotsman is French. There is a fundamental point here. You can't be an individualist and a collectivist at the same time. Racism is collectivist.

Further, most of the racist that pretend to be libertarians are actually neoconfederates. They are primarily proponents of States rights, not just as a way to divide power, but they believe that the state has a moral right to infringe upon the rights of the individual. They support libertarianism only at the level of the federal government and abandon it at lower levels.

Also, monty has not produced one libertarian that is racist much less that all of them are. He is as vague as his buddy pmp. I am sure he will point to Ron Paul and I would say it is debatable that he is a racist and or libertarian. He is somewhat libertarian and I won't bother to fully disclaim him. He is hardly the prototypical libertarian and he has been way too tolerant of racists and other nuts.

I draw no real distinction between Rothbard and Friedman. They both want to blame the fed and take the blame away from the failure of American business. And they're both being proven wrong by the recent near depression which was averted by Obama's quick actions.

Technically you are right about SS forum being less than 10 years old. But in reality it was a continuation of Wanniski's Talk Shop and the participants were the same group of about a dozen people with an occasional newcomer that came and usually didn't stay. Name me five of the participants and show me that 'you' know what you're talking about. Five that went back to talk shop.

Libertarianism is about 89% based on greed, as is Friedman's whole philosophy and as he freely admitted. It is nothing more than a clever device used to reconcile keeping all your money and avoid paying taxes. Supplyside economics is about the same thing only it's even more transparent in that it relies on the Laffer curve to justify only the supplysiders keeping all their money while the underclasses pay the burden of keeping the gov solvent.
The other 10% of libertarians are angry racists who found a convenient excuse to hate the poor. The racist that you freely admit are a part of the makeup. And the other 1% or so could actually be true believers in the libertarian fantasy world. Some undoubtedly would be flat earthers too.

Ron Paul is a libertarian inasmuch as he uses the libertarian label to reconcile his politics of greed. His racist rantings for which he was smacked down are consistent with his politics of greed because without the poor in the black community the problem would be at least surmountable for his politics. It isn't.

Is there any true libertarian you wouldn't try to distance yourself from.
 
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