Settling the Biological Virus Debate

[Poor Richard Saunders]

I suspect you didn't even read the "story at a glance" portion of Children Health Defense's article, even though I quoted it in its entirety several posts ago for you. Quoting the relevant portion below:

**
•There are scientists who believe that polio-like symptoms could be caused by toxic substances, including pesticides.
**

Source:
A Story About Polio, Pesticides and the Meaning of Science | Children's Health Defense

Surely we can agree that toxic substances have been around long before the 1940s.

Of course toxic substances have been around but claiming they cause a disease when they are abundant like EMFs or DDT and then not explaining why the existed before those substances shows an unwillingness to examine your theories in light of facts.

Ad to your polio link:

it is one of those cases where I have to humbly accept not knowing the definitive answer

I am at peace knowing that I don’t know the “final answer”

changing my mind as many times as I want

s it possible, at least as a thought experiment?

let me dare ask a village yokel question and just leave it out there:

And then don't you just love the ad hominem nature of the conclusion?

In conclusion, I will say that having the same group of people who have historically been big fans of eugenics now run both the official transition to what they call “the Fourth Industrial Revolution” and the global “health response” doesn’t make me feel relaxed.

But I love that you rely on strongly opinionated musicians from Russia for your science.

Tessa Lena is a strongly opinionated musician

But the real question that needs to be answered is this:

The Salk vaccine was introduced in 1954. DDT was banned in the U.S. in 1972.

If DDT wasn't banned until 1972, why did polio cases drop in the 1950's after the introduction of the vaccine?
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/prevalence-of-polio-rates-in-the-united-states
The polio case rate went from 35.6/100,000 in the years before the vaccine was introduced to .6/100,000 by 1960.

Your musician seems to not want to look at facts and examine them.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

I actually did, and even pointed out that claims that any biological virus has been isolated/purified is not the same thing as providing evidence that this has actually happened.

Are you willing to argue that proteins have never been isolated? Are you willing to argue that the human genome has never been sequenced?

The problem you have is you refuse to accept a process when it comes to viruses but the same process that is used for viruses you accept for proteins and the human genome.
At this point, all you have is denial. I provide you evidence that viruses are isolated using the same techniques as proteins and you simply stick your fingers in your ears and yell, "No, I don't believe it!!!"

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

Indeed. Might want to work on that.



I gave you an explanation way back in Post #594. It's at the top of the nested quotes above, but I'll pinpoint the exact sentence for you:
"I believe all the factors for diseases are environmental, with the top 3 factors being pollutants/toxins, harmful EMFs and malnutrition."

If you believe that then you should be able to present some actual evidence that doesn't rely on musicians or doctors that are no longer licensed. YOu have not been able to provide that.
But let's examine how ridiculous your claims are.
You believe that 3 factors cause all disease. The problem you have is you can't show which factor it is for any given disease.
Covid was allegedly caused by a virus. You claim it is caused by one of your 3 factors.

Which factor is your cause for Covid?
It can't be a pollutant because Covid has been found worldwide. There is no evidence of any pollutant traveling around the world in that short of a time frame without evidence of it existing.
It can't be EMF because your argument for flu is that EMFs change with the seasons. Covid has been found in countries with a lot of electricity and countries with almost no electricity. 2019 was the low spot in the sun's activity. So it can't be EMFs.
Covid has also been found in countries without malnutrition and with malnutrition. So malnutrition seems unlikely since being overweight is a factor in making Covid more deadly. Malnourished people typically aren't obese.

There is no possible way for Covid to have been caused by any of your 3 factors. You can't provide any logical argument that any of those 3 factors caused it.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

A cell tower is not an 'energy weapon'.
5G is a protocol, not a cell tower.

5g is a specification for a set of frequencies of electromagentic energy.

ultimately its an energy wave. it can be weaponized.

Safe search: offAny time
Directed-energy weapon - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Directed-energy_weapon
A directed-energy weapon ( DEW) is a ranged weapon that damages its target with highly focused energy without a solid projectile, including lasers, microwaves, particle beams, and sound beams. Potential applications of this technology include weapons that target personnel, missiles, vehicles, and optical devices.
Images for directed energy weapons
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Updated November 14, 2022 Defense Primer: Directed-Energy Weapons
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O'Rourke, and CRS Report R45098, U.S. Army Weapons-Related Directed Energy (DE) Programs: Background and Potential Issues for Congress, by Andrew Feickert. DOD directed energy programs are coordinated by the Principal Director for Directed Energy within the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Research and Engineering (OUSD[R&E]).
Directed Energy - Air Force Research Laboratory
https://afresearchlab.com › technology › directed-energy
Directed Energy (DE) harnesses the power of the electromagnetic spectrum to enable Airmen to effectively and affordably strike critical targets at the speed of light. SUCCESS STORIES AIR FORCE MAUI OPTICAL AND SUPERCOMPUTING (AMOS) SITE Freedom to operate and maintain satellites in space is a critical component of our national security.
Directed Energy | Lockheed Martin
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Lockheed's newest high-energy weapon is multiple lasers Lockheed Martin delivers 300-kilowatt laser to Defense U.S. military receives first of three planned 300-kilowatt JUST IN: Lockheed Martin Delivers High-Powered Laser Tech Lockheed Martin Delivers Its Highest Powered Laser To Date High-energy laser weapons ready for the front lines
Hypersonic and directed-energy weapons: Who has them, and who's winning ...
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Mar 15, 2021The classified project, dubbed DURGA II (Directionally Unrestricted Ray-Gun Array), will see the Indian Army receive the 100-kilowatt, lightweight directed-energy system, a service official...
Directed Energy Weapons Are Real . . . And Disruptive
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One of the greatest attributes of directed energy weapons is that they operate at the speed of light. So, for a hypersonic weapon that is travelling at 25 times the speed of sound, a high- energy laser can engage it at roughly 35,000 times its speed. This makes targeting and tracking easier as well.
The Army is readying a new directed energy weapon to swat drone swarms ...
https://taskandpurpose.com › news › army-microwave-weapon-drone-swarms-ifpc-hpm-contract
Jan 26, 2023The IFPC-HPM system is intended to provide a ground-based direct-energy weapon that can "acquire, track, engage, and defeat" all manner of incoming threats, from cruise missiles and rocket,...
Directed Energy Weapons: Timeline - Army Technology
https://www.army-technology.com › comment › directed-energy-weapons-laser
2021 - US Navy install high-energy laser with integrated optical dazzler and surveillance (HELIOS) systems to Arleigh Burke (DDG-51) class Aegis destroyer. 2023 - US test a space-based directed energy weapon based on neutral particle beam technology. 2025 - Laser weapons are fully operationally on combat systems and vehicles.
Directed Energy Weapons: High Power Microwaves
https://www.nre.navy.mil › organization › departments › aviation-force-projection-and-integrated-defense › aerospace-science-research-351 › directed-energy-weapons-high-power-microwaves
Directed energy weapons (DEWs) are defined as electromagnetic systems capable of converting chemical or electrical energy to radiated energy and focusing it on a target, resulting in physical...
What are directed energy weapons - Direct Energy Weapons Agency
https://dewagency.org › what-are-directed-energy-weapons
A directed-energy weapon (DEW) is a ranged weapon that damages its target with highly focused energy, including laser, microwaves and particle beams. Potential applications of this technology include weapons that target personnel, missiles, vehicles, and optical devices.


https://duckduckgo.com/?q=directed+energy+weapons&ia=web

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

Beamforming - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Beamforming
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What Is Beamforming? - MATLAB & Simulink - MathWorks
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Beamforming is the application of multiple radiating elements transmitting the same signal at an identical wavelength and phase, which combine to create a single antenna with a longer, more targeted stream which is formed by reinforcing the waves in a specific direction. The general concept was first employed in 1906 for trans-oceanic radio ...
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Apr 14, 2022Beamforming+ is NETGEAR's implementation of the beamforming standard defined in the IEEE 802.11ac draft specification. Beamforming+ implements a fine-tuned WiFi design for improved range and performance across all WiFi devices, especially in the 5 Ghz frequency band. NETGEAR Beamforming+ also includes driver level improvements for improved WiFi performance and range. NETGEAR routers with ...


https://duckduckgo.com/?q=beamforming&ia=web

 

[Into the Night]

5g is a specification for a set of frequencies of electromagentic energy.

Nope. 5G is a protocol. A protocol is not a frequency has has no frequency.

ultimately its an energy wave. it can be weaponized.

Radio is not a weapon.

 

[Into the Night]

Beamforming - Wikipedia

Apparently you are unfamiliar with directive antennas. They've been around since the 40's, dumbass. 5G is a protocol. It is not an antenna.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

Nope. 5G is a protocol. A protocol is not a frequency has has no frequency.

Radio is not a weapon.

stfu. fool.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

Apparently you are unfamiliar with directive antennas. They've been around since the 40's, dumbass. 5G is a protocol. It is not an antenna.

stop being an idiot.

 

[Scott]

Define 'pollutant'.

*something that pollutes*

Source:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pollutant

Circular definition.

Not if we're using dictionary.com's definition of the term:
**

circular definition

a definition in which the definiendum (the expression being defined) or a variant of it appears in the definiens (the expression that defines it).
**

Source:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/circular-definition

You cannot define any word or phrase with a buzzword.

I don't see any evidence that pollutant is a buzzword.

Define 'the pollution'.

I found the following paragraph from an article I found online to be informative on the subject of pollution:

**
The 7 Different Types of Pollution

When you think of environmental pollution, it typically comes in seven different types. These include air, water, land, radioactive, thermal, light, and sound pollution. Explore the definition and causes of each type of pollution.
**

Source:
What Are the 7 Different Types of Pollution? | yourdictionary.com

 

[Scott]

*something that pollutes*

Source:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pollutant

False authority fallacy. Dictionaries do not define any word.

I strongly suspect you wouldn't be able to find anyone in this forum to agree with you there. But you do you.

The Jury's clearly still out on which EMFs should be included in that list, but efforts are certainly being made to get a clearer picture. Ionizing EMFs have been known to cause significant harm for a while now. As to non ionizing EMFs, I'll quote from a Children's Health Defense article that I think offers a little clarification:

There is no jury.

It's an expression of speech:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/jury-is-still-out

The Jury's clearly still out on which EMFs should be included in that list, but efforts are certainly being made to get a clearer picture. Ionizing EMFs have been known to cause significant harm for a while now. As to non ionizing EMFs, I'll quote from a Children's Health Defense article that I think offers a little clarification:

**
Did you know New Hampshire is the first government in the U.S. to conduct a formal investigation of wireless risks and issue a groundbreaking report of harm along with safer ways to use today’s technology?

Irrelevant. Radio does not affect the human body.

Apparently you consider facts to be irrelevant if they disagree with your pre conceived notions.

They discovered thousands of peer-reviewed, published studies that link wireless radiation to our growing rates of insomnia, headaches, fatigue, anxiety, depression and more. In the long-term, the U.S. National Toxicology Program has found cell phone radiation causes cancer and DNA damage. It is also a leading cause of our disappearing pollinators. This invisible radiation is constantly pulsed from all things wireless, unless we learn to use technology safely and responsibly.

Full article:
EMF/RF Free Monthly Educational Webinars, CeCe Doucette: “Wireless Technology Risks and Safer Solutions” | Children's Health Defense

**

Radio has no affect on the human body.

Well, I suppose the old dictum applies here: "Never argue with someone who knows they're right". So again, you do you.

Define 'malnutrition'.

From Wikipedia:
**
Malnutrition or nutritional deficiency occurs when an organism gets too few or too many nutrients, resulting in health problems.[11]
**

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malnutrition

Summarily discarded. You cannot use Wikipedia as a reference.

I can and I did. If you believe that malnutrition is better defined in another way, by all means present your alternative definition as well as your source for alternative definition.

You obviously don't know what 'disease' means.

I think that the American Heritage Dictionary's definition of the term is good:
**
An abnormal condition of a part, organ, or system of an organism resulting from various causes, such as infection, inflammation, environmental factors, or genetic defect, and characterized by an identifiable group of signs, symptoms, or both.
**

Source:
https://www.wordnik.com/words/disease

Dictionaries do not define any word.

Again, I doubt you'll find anyone here to agree with you there. But let's see how you define the term disease...

The word 'disease' first appeared in the English lexicon around the 14th century. It is a compound word coming from French. 'dis' meaning a negation, and 'ease' meaning being 'at ease', or 'comfortable'.

Interesting.

Since then, the word is generally narrowed to some type of medical cause (such as a virus).

No, the causes of diseases is not the disease itself, even if one subscribes to the notion of biological viruses. It is said that the Cov 2 virus -causes- the disease labelled Covid 19. They are defined as separate things.

 

[Scott]

Again, there is no soild evidence that a biological virus has ever been isolated, which means there is no solid evidence that they exist. Exosomes appear to be hard to isolate, but it also appears that it may have been done. Their Wikipedia page does include a section on their isolation, unlike Wikipedia's page on viruses, which does not. Why do you suppose that is? In any case, here's the section in question for exosomes:

**
Isolation

The isolation and detection of exosomes has proven to be complicated.[5][60] Due to the complexity of body fluids, physical separation of exosomes from cells and similar-sized particles is challenging. Isolation of exosomes using differential ultracentrifugation results in co-isolation of protein and other contaminants and incomplete separation of vesicles from lipoproteins.[61] Combining ultracentrifugation with micro-filtration or a gradient can improve purity.[62][63] Single step isolation of extracellular vesicles by size-exclusion chromatography has been demonstrated to provide greater efficiency for recovering intact vesicles over centrifugation,[64] although a size-based technique alone will not be able to distinguish exosomes from other vesicle types. To isolate a pure population of exosomes a combination of techniques is necessary, based on both physical (e.g. size, density) and biochemical parameters (e.g. presence/absence of certain proteins involved in their biogenesis).[61][65] The use of reference materials such as trackable recombinant EV will assist in mitigating technical variation introduced during sample preparation and analysis.[66][67] Novel selective isolation methodology has been using a combination of immunoaffinity chromatography and asymmetric-flow field-flow fractionation to reduce the contamination from lipoproteins and other proteins when isolating from blood plasma.[68][69]

Often, functional as well as antigenic assays are applied to derive useful information from multiple exosomes. Well-known examples of assays to detect proteins in total populations of exosomes are mass spectrometry and Western blot. However, a limitation of these methods is that contaminants may be present that affect the information obtained from such assays. Preferably, information is derived from single exosomes. Relevant properties of exosomes to detect include size, density, morphology, composition, and zeta potential.[70]
**

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exosome_(vesicle)

So, you have decided to just pretend I never gave you the process by which viruses have been purified?
Ultracentrifugation is the same process that can be used to isolate viruses. You can't claim that exosomes have been isolated and then claim that viruses have not.

you never showed anyone the process whereby viruses have been purified.

He linked and quoted some article that claimed to purify viruses with ultra centrifugation. I rebutted the claim by quoting the following from Dr. Mark Bailey's rebuttal of the alleged discovery of the Cov 2 virus, bolding the part where an ultracentrifuge is mentioned:

**
As of 11 September 2022 and following extensive enquiries through Freedom of Information (FOI) requests coordinated by Christine Massey, not one of 209 mainly health or science institutions in over 35 countries have been able to provide direct evidence of the alleged SARS-CoV-2 virus.2 The institutions were asked to produce any documents demonstrating, “the purificaton of ‘SARS- CoV-2’ said to have caused disease in humans (via maceration, filtration, and use of an ultracentrifuge; also referred to at times by some people as ‘isolaton’), directly from a diseased human...” On many occasions, following an admission that no such evidence is held, institutions such as the New Zealand Ministry of Health then suggest that, “there are several examples of the virus being isolated and cultured in a laboratory setting.”3 However, the examples referred to are universally tissue culture proxy experiments, in which the word ‘isolation’ has become detached from its understood meaning and it has not been demonstrated that any particle, imaged or imagined, has the properties of a disease-causing virus. In any case, it is a distraction from the wider issue exposed by the FOI requests, which is that particles claimed to be viruses can never be found in human subjects. Virology has made excuses for this missing evidence but even allowing for this embarrassing deficiency, it is running out of places to hide as its various methodologies are increasingly scrutinised by those outside the field.
**

Source:
A Farewell To Virology (Expert Edition) | drsambailey.com

 

[Scott]

cell towers can all be energy weapons.

I hadn't heard that claim before. Do you have a link to this claim? I found an article after an internet search, this one:
Cell Phone Towers Rigged as Mind Influencing Directed Energy Weapons | stillnessinthestorm.com

However, I'm not sure as to the reliability of the article.

In any case, I certainly believe that cell phone towers can damage people's health, especially the 5g ones. I've been talking about an article that Suzanne Burdick published on Children's Health Defense that gets into 2 case reports that provide evidence for this:
5G Towers Can Make Healthy People Sick, Two Case Reports Show | Children's Health Defense

5g is banned from the UN for a reason.

I also hadn't heard this claim before, couldn't find an article that claims this either. Do you have such an article?

 

[Into the Night]

Not if we're using dictionary.com's definition of the term:
**

circular definition

a definition in which the definiendum (the expression being defined) or a variant of it appears in the definiens (the expression that defines it).
**

Source:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/circular-definition



I don't see any evidence that pollutant is a buzzword.



I found the following paragraph from an article I found online to be informative on the subject of pollution:

**
The 7 Different Types of Pollution

When you think of environmental pollution, it typically comes in seven different types. These include air, water, land, radioactive, thermal, light, and sound pollution. Explore the definition and causes of each type of pollution.
**

Source:
What Are the 7 Different Types of Pollution? | yourdictionary.com

Still can't define the 'pollution', eh?

 

[Into the Night]

I strongly suspect you wouldn't be able to find anyone in this forum to agree with you there. But you do you.

Omniscience fallacy.

It's an expression of speech:

Backpedaling, eh?

Apparently you consider facts to be irrelevant if they disagree with your pre conceived notions.

Correct. They are not facts for that exact reason. You really need to learn what 'fact' means.

Well, I suppose the old dictum applies here: "Never argue with someone who knows they're right". So again, you do you.

Cliche fallacy.

I can and I did. If you believe that malnutrition is better defined in another way, by all means present your alternative definition as well as your source for alternative definition.

Random phrase.

Again, I doubt you'll find anyone here to agree with you there. But let's see how you define the term disease...

RQAA.

No, the causes of diseases is not the disease itself,

Never said it was.

 

[Scott]

You seem to have a hard time with the concept that one can believe -some- of a person's beliefs, while disagreeing with others. There's actually a word for this, electicism. From Wikipedia:

**
Eclecticism is a conceptual approach that does not hold rigidly to a single paradigm or set of assumptions, but instead draws upon multiple theories, styles, or ideas to gain complementary insights into a subject, or applies different theories in particular cases.

[snip]

It can sometimes seem inelegant or lacking in simplicity, and eclectics are sometimes criticized for lack of consistency in their thinking. It is, however, common in many fields of study. For example, most psychologists accept certain aspects of behaviorism, but do not attempt to use the theory to explain all aspects of human behavior.
**

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclecticism

If only we were discussing psychology, philosophy, architecture, or martial arts. But we aren't discussing those esoteric topics. We are discussing hard science.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss whether or not biological viruses exist. I find that Arthur Firstenberg's evidence in regards to EMFs being damaging to humans to be well sourced, as well as his evidence that alleged viruses such as the flu aren't contagious. I think he's on the right track, I just find that, combined with the extensive research done by Dr. Mark Bailey and other doctors, there is more evidence suggesting that biological viruses don't exist at all. If you think about it, Mr. Firstenberg was already on the same track when he said that the flu wasn't contagious. Since biological viruses are defined as being contagious, it stands to reason that what he's talking about isn't actually biological viruses at all, but something else, exosomes perhaps.

 

[Scott]

Firstenbert says viruses exist. Firstenberg says viruses are affected by EMFs. Firstenberg says the viruses multiply when affected by EMFs
You claim viruses don't exist. You claim viruses can't multiply.
The only agreement seems to be that EMFs exist.

No, the reason I referenced and quoted his work is because of the evidence he provided that certain EMFs are harmful to biological life and that the flu is not contagious. Since definition of biological viruses are that they are contagious, what he is describing is clearly not a biological virus even if he is labelling it as such.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

I hadn't heard that claim before. Do you have a link to this claim? I found an article after an internet search, this one:
Cell Phone Towers Rigged as Mind Influencing Directed Energy Weapons | stillnessinthestorm.com

However, I'm not sure as to the reliability of the article.

In any case, I certainly believe that cell phone towers can damage people's health, especially the 5g ones. I've been talking about an article that Suzanne Burdick published on Children's Health Defense that gets into 2 case reports that provide evidence for this:
5G Towers Can Make Healthy People Sick, Two Case Reports Show | Children's Health Defense



I also hadn't heard this claim before, couldn't find an article that claims this either. Do you have such an article?

no.

and

no.

do your own research.

 

[Scott]

EMFs play a decisive role according to Firstenberg because they activate viruses that exist in the body.

That is certainly -part- of his theory, but it's not all of it. The other part is his belief that EMFs play a crucial role in the flu. That's the part I agree with.

His belief is that EMFs activate viruses.

He actually only deals with the alleged flu virus, and he also goes on to say that there is strong evidence that this alleged flu virus is not contagious. Since biological viruses are by definition contagious, he's clearly describing something other than a biological virus. Exosomes, perhaps.

He never once argues that EMFs cause the disease.

He argues that EMFs activate the alleged flu virus- in essence, without these EMFs, there would be no disease. And he also offers plenty of evidence that various non ionizing EMFs are harmful to pretty much all life at the doses that we are receiving these days from man made technologies.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

Still can't define the 'pollution', eh?

you're a fucking idiot, dude.