APP - Socialism Reconsidered

midcan5

Member
A fascinating and interesting critique of economics today, left and right. Most will not read it as it is long and well argued. Its argument goes against the narratives so deeply held by libertarians, the right, and much of the left. Venture in if you dare.

An emotional cycle that repeats itself....

"(1) anger at right-wing government precedes (2) hope in a new Left and (3) election of a new government; (4) disgust at that government’s compromises gives way to (5) protest at betrayals, leading to (6) refusal to vote which produces (1) anger at right-wing government."

"The problem was that neither Obama nor Occupy was able to give the idea of fraternity any real substance. For Obama, it seemed to imply campaign contributions; for Occupy, endless discussions. Neither could connect it to the imperatives of our changing economic climate or to the day-to-day decisions and actions that together constitute society. This, not their idealism, was their failing. If fraternity is to be more than a utopian fantasy or a pious palliative, it will need to find expression in an ethic that can be lived out in everyday life, in institutions that are within our grasp, in a vision of a future radically better than the present yet recognizably rooted in its conditions."

See more at: http://thepointmag.com/2012/politics/socialism-can-believe


"A final word on politics. As in economics nothing is certain save the certainty that there will be firm prediction by those who do not know. It is possible that in some election, near or far, a presidential candidate will emerge in the United States determined to draw into the campaign those not now impelled to vote. Conceivably those so attracted - those who are not threatened by higher taxes and who are encouraged by the vision of a new governing community committed to the rescue of the cities and the impacted underclass - could outnumber those lost because of the resulting invasion of contentment. If this happens the effort would succeed." John Kenneth Galbraith 'The Culture of Contentment'

"A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both." Dwight D. Eisenhower
 
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socialism fails everywhere it is tried

the reality is that all those who think they are the smartest people in the world and can create a command and control economy fail to acknowledge that it is part of the human condition to worry about oneself first. That will never change
 
if your supposition is that Occupy was an attempt at a fresh look towards socialism, it failed. Occupy idiots focused what should have been righteous anger at the wrong end of the apparatus known as the establishment.
 
I didn't think you'd read it, continue on....

You are right. I didn't read it. I think all Takers should be stripped of their ability to vote as they have no skin in the game. It is easy to vote to have the government take from others to give to you. It takes moral courage to avoid that trap. Socialism is an evil, vile ideology akin to islam that is cloaked in caring and compassion yet strips away individual initiative and reduces people to its lowest common denominator. Socialism preys on the weak and uneducated. I have seen the history of destruction that socialism has wrought. As the saying goes, you can't put lipstick on a pig.
 
In my experience people are not willing or able to live the socialist life. There is in our nature a need for self preservation that will not permit a pack mentality.

Dogs can as they developed in a strength in numbers way. It gives way re reproduction but that's to be expected in animals.
We don't share. Not in kindergarten not in adulthood outside the family. Charity sure but share ? Nope.
To fight your nature us a losing proposition.
IMO
 
not to mention the unspoken side of socialism. that it's a completely false representation of 'equality'. it invariably resolves in to a two caste system. the rulers and the subjects.
 
not to mention the unspoken side of socialism. that it's a completely false representation of 'equality'. it invariably resolves in to a two caste system. the rulers and the subjects.

It also either takes advantage of a person's desire to do their best or it destroys it.
 
It also either takes advantage of a person's desire to do their best or it destroys it.

You know what else destroys a persons desire to do their best?

Nepotism...a cornerstone of the "free market" system.

A person works and works and works and busts their butt night after night after night.

They work nights and weekends and holidays and WHENEVER is necessary in order to shine, and their boss gives the promotion to the CEO's nephew.
 
You know what else destroys a persons desire to do their best?

Nepotism...a cornerstone of the "free market" system.

A person works and works and works and busts their butt night after night after night.

They work nights and weekends and holidays and WHENEVER is necessary in order to shine, and their boss gives the promotion to the CEO's nephew.

Nepotism was rampant in the Soviet Union, as well as in the mercantilist British Empire.
 
You know what else destroys a persons desire to do their best?

Nepotism...a cornerstone of the "free market" system.

A person works and works and works and busts their butt night after night after night.

They work nights and weekends and holidays and WHENEVER is necessary in order to shine, and their boss gives the promotion to the CEO's nephew.

While this is often true of private companies, publicly held ones generally prohibit them due to the needless issues you note. As to cornerstone, have to disagree.
 
Dear midcan5 et. al.:

Prior to receiving authorization to use this forum [I'm new here], I replied to J. Thakkar's article on the general JPP forum which, if interested, you may access here.

IMT
 
Some time ago I asked a question in a thought experiment that confounded many. Most answered according to their ideological conceptions. Thoughtless, same as most of the replies above. Political reactions are often Pavlovian. It is here: http://www.justplainpolitics.com/showthread.php?21380-A-Conservative-Wakes-Up

But today watching the election and having years of reading history added to this head of mine, I think life is just lots of BS and Mythology and reality vanishes under the weight of language. Language that has no connection to life, kinda like my satirical education piece in sig. I recently finished a book on Carter and Reagan, and when I consider the contemporary view of these two presidents I know I am on to something. ;)

More socialistic thought lol.

"Most interactions with people that you trust, people that you love, or people that just need to cooperate with on an immediate basis, take the form of “From each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs.” It doesn’t matter if you’re working for the government, working for a corporation, or working in your family; if you need to fix the toilet because it’s leaking and you say “Hand me the wrench,” the other guy doesn’t say “What do I get for that?” It’s not an exchange; people act according to their abilities to chip in. Ironically communism is applied because it’s the only thing that works; it’s the most efficient way to allocate resources. Thus I like to say that you could argue that capitalism is just a bad way of organizing communism." David Graeber

"Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." John Kenneth Galbraith
 
It was good to see so many hits on this thread, thinking caps on.

"With difficulty Eisenhower managed to reduce federal support for agricultural commodity prices somewhat. Otherwise he left the welfare state alone. More than that, as promised, he improved it. In 1954 Social Security coverage was broadened and the minimum wage raised from $.75 to $1.00 an hour. In 1955 a new public housing law provided for the construction of 45,000 units. His plan to subsidize private health insurance programs failed. Conservatives on principle opposed it as a step toward socialized medicine; liberals, out of political expediency, opposed it as too meager, half a loaf apparently being worse than none. Eisenhower's effort to obtain federal grants for school construction foundered similarly because Congressman Adam Clayton Powell, Jr., of Harlem added a rider denying funds to racially segregated schools. Though just, the rider was anathema to Southern members, who had pledged to defend racism at all costs. Eisenhower had better luck with public works, notably the St. Lawrence Seaway, blocked for years by competing interest groups, and the Federal Highway Act of 1956 that financed the interstate system." p196 'American High: The Years of Confidence, 1945-1960' by William L. O'Neill
 
One of the things I find kinda depressing on the Internet is the number of people who use terms they do not understand. Words like socialism, fascism, communism, libertarian are throw about not to understand but to label. Democrats haven't learned this tactic yet, they think people understand ideology. Words have power over the mind of the uneducated. For the interested reader see link below, and check out Oxford Short Introductions.

Political keywords: http://www.amazon.com/Political-Key...yone/dp/1405150653/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8

"Liberals and progressives have been slow to realize that their preferred vocabulary has been hijacked and that when they respond to once - hallowed phrases they are responding to a ghost now animated by a new machine, The point is not a small one, for in any debate, especially one fought in the arena of public opinion, the battle is won not by knock - down arguments but by the party that succeeds in placing its own spin on the terms presiding over the discussion. That's what the conservatives in and out of Congress have managed to do with old war horses like "individual" and so long as they are allowed to get away with it, the opposition will spend its time insisting that it too is for the individual or for color-blindness or equal opportunity - and before we know it all the plovers will be dead and all the subcontractors will once again be white." Stanley Fish, 'The Trouble with Principle' (http://www.drugsense.org/tfy/hijacked.htm)

"I say it to you now, knowing full well that you will agree with me (that is, understand) only if you already agree with me." Stanley Fish
 
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