The abortion issue...

Jarod

Well-known member
Contributor
How we discuss that issue here is in a political sense and if it should be legal or not...

If people should be allowed the CHOICE of making the decision to have an abortion or not.

Thus we are talking about being Pro-Choice or Anti-Choice.

If we were debating if abortion is a good thing or not, if we were debating if an individual woman should make the choice to have an abortion or not... then we would be debating life and the terminology would be if you are...

Pro-abortion or anti-abortion.
 
How we discuss that issue here is in a political sense and if it should be legal or not...

If people should be allowed the CHOICE of making the decision to have an abortion or not.

Thus we are talking about being Pro-Choice or Anti-Choice.

If we were debating if abortion is a good thing or not, if we were debating if an individual woman should make the choice to have an abortion or not... then we would be debating life and the terminology would be if you are...

Pro-abortion or anti-abortion.

Or if we should work towards real choice and begin the program that would bring that so much quicker that I have advocated for a long time.

Tell me, if you believe that somebody is killing a child what justification could there possibly be for it?

So those that believe differently simply do not believe that such a choice can be justified except under rare circumstances.

Only people that don't want to picture the other side as people make such terminology important as "choice" or "anti-choice" or even "life" and "pro-abortion". Each of the people are compassionate, just in different ways. The assumption that the only choice can be to kill or to carry is simply too simplistic.
 
Or if we should work towards real choice and begin the program that would bring that so much quicker that I have advocated for a long time.

Tell me, if you believe that somebody is killing a child what justification could there possibly be for it?

So those that believe differently simply do not believe that such a choice can be justified except under rare circumstances.

Only people that don't want to picture the other side as people make such terminology important as "choice" or "anti-choice" or even "life" and "pro-abortion". Each of the people are compassionate, just in different ways. The assumption that the only choice can be to kill or to carry is simply too simplistic.


Here is the point, its not about what justification there is or is not for "killing a child". If you are anti-choice on this issue, admit it, be proud of it. Say, "DAM RIGHT I AM ANTI CHOICE WHEN THAT CHOICE IS IF TO KILL A CHILD OR NOT." Dont run from your belifes and hide it under the veil of calling yourself Pro-Life.

When you hide from the language of what it really is, it makes you look like you are runing from your position. I am proud to be PRO-LIFE and PRO-CHOICE. I am Not ANTI-CHOICE or ANTI-LIFE or PRO-DEATH.

THis thread is about how misleading the lable of PRO-LIFE, as its used in modern nomenclature is!
 
Ahh, but when does an egg become a child ?
Same old stuff, not sure why I posted on thsi thread, must be a net addict...
 
Jarod... you are walking down the PC line where it feels better for you to make the argument "pro vs. anti choice". Because the very nature of "anti" has a negative connotation. Whereas if you talk about what the real debate is - Pro-life vs Pro-abortion it does not do so.

You can call it what you will, but bottom line the question is .... should abortion be legal or not?

US... the answer is when the human egg cell is fertilized by a human sperm cell and begins to grow. A human life begins at that point.

Now if the pro-abortion crowd wants to argue "whether or not an unborn child should have access to basic human rights" or "at what time, if any, does the mothers rights supercede that of the child" then those are legitimate arguments. But there is no arguing the science behind when life begins.
 
Jarod... you are walking down the PC line where it feels better for you to make the argument "pro vs. anti choice". Because the very nature of "anti" has a negative connotation. Whereas if you talk about what the real debate is - Pro-life vs Pro-abortion it does not do so.

You can call it what you will, but bottom line the question is .... should abortion be legal or not?

US... the answer is when the human egg cell is fertilized by a human sperm cell and begins to grow. A human life begins at that point.

Now if the pro-abortion crowd wants to argue "whether or not an unborn child should have access to basic human rights" or "at what time, if any, does the mothers rights supercede that of the child" then those are legitimate arguments. But there is no arguing the science behind when life begins.


Well, how would you catagorize me, I personally am against abortion, I think it should not be done. I would support campaigns to end and prevent abortion short of making it illegal... However, I dont want the government to jump into people's reproductive and health decisions and thus dont think it should be illegal.

So am I pro-life.... Yup.

Am I pro-choice.... clearly.

Am I pro-death... clearly not

Am I pro-abortion... NO

Am I anti-abortion... yes.

How would you catagorize me using the modern pro-choice/Pro-life nomenclature?
 
I am pro-abortion, By legal professionals os course.
Perhaps few or none of those on here against abortion have worked any around social child welfare services, or lived in an area Rob would refer to as riff raff, or ghettoes. Personally been around abused children, etc.
Now I have not lived in all those places. But bringing a child into a life where abuse and misery is almost certain ????

An unwanted child has major strikes against it before birth.

A mother that does not want a child but is pressured into having it because of social constraints will be more likely to abuse that child than if the child were welcome.

Along the same lines, I think persons convicted of serious child abuse should be sterilized, so thay can't bring another shild into the world to abuse.

Of course there are the old standbys of rape, incest, etc...

This is my stance and I am sticking with it.

Only stating once and not argueing my points either.

There is no sense to argue an unchangeable attitude ;)
And this works both ways .
 
Here is the point, its not about what justification there is or is not for "killing a child". If you are anti-choice on this issue, admit it, be proud of it. Say, "DAM RIGHT I AM ANTI CHOICE WHEN THAT CHOICE IS IF TO KILL A CHILD OR NOT." Dont run from your belifes and hide it under the veil of calling yourself Pro-Life.

When you hide from the language of what it really is, it makes you look like you are runing from your position. I am proud to be PRO-LIFE and PRO-CHOICE. I am Not ANTI-CHOICE or ANTI-LIFE or PRO-DEATH.

THis thread is about how misleading the lable of PRO-LIFE, as its used in modern nomenclature is!
I don't run from my "choice". I have given my opinion openly on this. I have presented a third idea that can be implemented if we wish and would present to us, later but real, a true reproductive choice for women while eliminating the idea that the only choice must be to kill or carry the burgeoning human life.
 
I don't run from my "choice". I have given my opinion openly on this. I have presented a third idea that can be implemented if we wish and would present to us, later but real, a true reproductive choice for women while eliminating the idea that the only choice must be to kill or carry the burgeoning human life.
Jarod's point is valid, I think. What you characterize as a "third idea" isn't really. It's just the anti-choice position dressed up in slightly different phraseology.

The real question is whether or not any arbitrarily chosen, individual woman can be trusted with the moral decision as to whether the fetus she carries is, at the moment in question, an independent human being. Any law, no matter how motivated or phrased, that removes this burden from women in general crosses a line that should, I think, give any thoughtful person pause.
 
Jarod's point is valid, I think. What you characterize as a "third idea" isn't really. It's just the anti-choice position dressed up in slightly different phraseology.

The real question is whether or not any arbitrarily chosen, individual woman can be trusted with the moral decision as to whether the fetus she carries is, at the moment in question, an independent human being. Any law, no matter how motivated or phrased, that removes this burden from women in general crosses a line that should, I think, give any thoughtful person pause.
Rubbish, as an end result it is the same as abortion in the beginning and results in a true reproductive choice in the long-term. It isn't the same old redressed. Attempting to make it so just shows that the only choice you wish for them to have are those that they are limited to now.

Imagine a world where the father would have every right to take on that responsibility if they so chose without it effecting the life or decision of the mother.

Imagine a world where the mother could choose not to carry, but still reproduce thus not limiting them in the business world as they have been in the past....

There are many benefits in the end result. Including doctors no longer working to end a life as a medical procedure.
 
Rubbish, as an end result it is the same as abortion in the beginning and results in a true reproductive choice in the long-term. It isn't the same old redressed. Attempting to make it so just shows that the only choice you wish for them to have are those that they are limited to now.

Imagine a world where the father would have every right to take on that responsibility if they so chose without it effecting the life or decision of the mother.

Imagine a world where the mother could choose not to carry, but still reproduce thus not limiting them in the business world as they have been in the past....

There are many benefits in the end result. Including doctors no longer working to end a life as a medical procedure.
Lovely. Add a bit of coffee grounds and you'll have some dandy compost.

Any embryo that is not embedded in a woman's womb is not viable, in today's world. It is possible, even likely, that the issue will arise someday but it hasn't yet. it isn't likely to arise within my lifetime nor, I think, yours. Perhaps in our children's but I'm skeptical of even that. Not viable to full term. Possibly as spare parts but not as a new, complete individual.

Transplantation of embryos might become possible, but I wonder who will get to decide which have to be saved. What if no host can be found? What if the biological mother's not comfortable with having her genetic offspring raised by someone else? A bit irrational, perhaps, but no more so than insisting that a 6 week fetus has legal identity and moral rights.

Yes, yes, I know. She "should" have thought of that before having sex, right? Should. According to some. Because the putative rights of a clump of cells are more important than the freedom and happiness of a living woman. Right.

The fact remains that the effect of your proposal would be to remove the moral choice from the individual woman by legislation. I've no problem with the principle, as you know, but I just don't see the need in this instance.
 
Ahh, but when does an egg become a child ?

An egg isn't a child any more than a sperm. It is when the sperm permeates the egg and conception creates a unique living organism, which human life begins. This is not subject to debate or opinion, it is a clinical biological fact of physical principle that simply can't be denied, although many do.

By refusing to recognize what an embryo actually is, we can accept the premise that a woman has some right to choose how to proceed. We could actually take the exact same argument, and apply it to 18-month olds and younger. We could stipulate that any mother of any terrible twosies, could tie their child up in a sack and throw them in the river, and that would be her right because the infant is not a legal adult human. The only difference is the intrinsic nature of how a fetus depends on a womb to survive, however, most 18-month-olds are totally incapable of survival on their own, so in actuality, the same condition exists.

I am pro-choice. By this, I mean that I believe women should always have the choice of whether or not to engage in safe sex. The consequences of not engaging in safe sex, or using any number of birth control products, is well documented and understood, you can become pregnant from your act. It is socially derelict in our responsibility to simply allow women unlimited choice, especially when it involves the LIFE of another human. We should also have the choice of what kind of neighborhood we live in, and people form all sorts of neighborhood organizations, they work with the municipalities and law enforcement, and they exercise their rights to live in the kind of neighborhood they choose. We wouldn't consider allowing people to shoot their neighbors and kill them because they have a right to live in a certain kind of neighborhood, it is a right people just don't have, because despite their rights to live in a good neighborhood, it doesn't trump another person's right to life. The same is true with abortion, it is not that I oppose women having a right, they just shouldn't have it at the expense of another life.

You are not "pro-abortion" any more than I am "anti-choice", these are the words invoked by extremists who are unreasonable and have no intention of discussing the issue rationally. No one likes abortion, or thinks it's a good thing, but this is the reason more people should speak out against it, rather than find excuses for it and false reasons to justify it. The most troublesome and disturbing, are those who will try to completely ignore or defy science and biology, and claim that a human embryo is something besides what it is, a human life.

Three questions posed by former surgeon general, C Everett Koop....
1. If it is not living, why would it have to be terminated?
2. If it is not human, what sort of living organism is it?
3. If it is living human life, why are we debating it?
 
Lovely. Add a bit of coffee grounds and you'll have some dandy compost.

Any embryo that is not embedded in a woman's womb is not viable, in today's world. It is possible, even likely, that the issue will arise someday but it hasn't yet. it isn't likely to arise within my lifetime nor, I think, yours. Perhaps in our children's but I'm skeptical of even that. Not viable to full term. Possibly as spare parts but not as a new, complete individual.

Transplantation of embryos might become possible, but I wonder who will get to decide which have to be saved. What if no host can be found? What if the biological mother's not comfortable with having her genetic offspring raised by someone else? A bit irrational, perhaps, but no more so than insisting that a 6 week fetus has legal identity and moral rights.

Yes, yes, I know. She "should" have thought of that before having sex, right? Should. According to some. Because the putative rights of a clump of cells are more important than the freedom and happiness of a living woman. Right.

The fact remains that the effect of your proposal would be to remove the moral choice from the individual woman by legislation. I've no problem with the principle, as you know, but I just don't see the need in this instance.
Once again, the point isn't the viability at the beginning, it is actually working towards a different goal.

And BTW, right now they can remove an embryo and implant it in another woman. It isn't 100% successful, but it certainly can be done. The next step is to work toward an outside incubation process, I certainly think that there is a good chance that it too can be done in time.

Yet instead we work toward one goal only, end that life, and call it choice.

At least allow for the attempt to be made to further science. It even has the added benefit that the embryo that dies in such an event could easily, and without all the added negatives, be used in stem cell research if those who made the choice to practice this and advance science offered it.

I have made no insistence that a fetus has "putative" rights, that is you attempting to give me an opinion. I think it is more moral to work toward extending rather than ending life, true. But it certainly isn't the central reason behind my position. I believe that we can advance a science that in the end would give an amazing actual choice to the mother rather than the truncated, kill it or keep it that we currently have.

Then you continue on into some inane, "should have thought of that" argument that I never once propounded. This is a classical straw man argument.

I know it is easier to argue against your presumption (yes Dixie, it is the right word) rather than my points, but it isn't a legitimate refutation of my position because it simply doesn't even address it. It addresses some other opinion that wasn't expressed.

Also, addressing the "freedom of the woman", it would be exactly the same for her. In my proposition it includes the right of the mother to reject the fetus and allows for another the chance to accept it. Often people wait years upon years to gain adoption of a young child at birth, no longer would they have to wait so long. We'd have to work to remove the stigma of adoption in society, make it more accessible, including to homosexual partners, and cheaper.

True there would be issues with this, as there are with the current system, but we can always work with the change rather than this oddly conservative view of yours that we must not change one iota of this current system.
 
Damo, I actually think your idea has merit, and I would support such a program. However, one aspect of the abortion issue that is often left untouched, is the psychological long-term effects on the mother. I believe, before any woman is allowed to make the decision of giving up their child, they should have to undergo some counseling, maybe hear from some mothers who did this and regretted it later, or experienced depression and guilt over it, which caused all kinds of problems in their life.

I just think we fail too many young women by not offering this consultation, and at least making some attempt to warn them of the potential consequences of what they are about to do. I'm not so sure that knowing that child is out there somewhere, is any better than knowing they are dead.

Look... the bottom line is, we have a moral obligation to our society, to not only protect those who can't speak for themselves, but to consider the circumstances of the poor scared young woman, facing this life-altering experience.
 
I know it is easier to argue against your presumption (yes Dixie, it is the right word)

Correct! ...and "presumptuousness" would have been the incorrect word! You don't need to explain it to me, I am clear on it, Maine is the one who has a problem with it.
 
Once again, the point isn't the viability at the beginning, it is actually working towards a different goal.

And BTW, right now they can remove an embryo and implant it in another woman. It isn't 100% successful, but it certainly can be done. The next step is to work toward an outside incubation process, I certainly think that there is a good chance that it too can be done in time.

Yet instead we work toward one goal only, end that life, and call it choice.
Excuse me? What stands in the way of any woman who wants to donate her embryo to such an endeavor right now? Nothing at all, so far as I know. Certainly not any pro-choice advocates. Nor does any interpretation of Roe v. Wade, no matter how broad.
At least allow for the attempt to be made to further science. It even has the added benefit that the embryo that dies in such an event could easily, and without all the added negatives, be used in stem cell research if those who made the choice to practice this and advance science offered it.
But what implications does this have for public policy? None that I can see. We certainly can't require that women make such a donation in place of a D&C, say. The opportunities for doing so simply aren't there.
I have made no insistence that a fetus has "putative" rights, that is you attempting to give me an opinion. I think it is more moral to work toward extending rather than ending life, true. But it certainly isn't the central reason behind my position. I believe that we can advance a science that in the end would give an amazing actual choice to the mother rather than the truncated, kill it or keep it that we currently have.
Perhaps I do misunderstand your position. Do you want to make this option available to women or do you want to force them to take it, whether it is available or not? If the former then we have no argument and I owe you an apology. If the latter, as I'd thought, then we're right back where we started.
Then you continue on into some inane, "should have thought of that" argument that I never once propounded. This is a classical straw man argument.
I think not. Not if you're intent upon forcing women to make such a donation rather than get an abortion.
I know it is easier to argue against your presumption (yes Dixie, it is the right word) rather than my points, but it isn't a legitimate refutation of my position because it simply doesn't even address it. It addresses some other opinion that wasn't expressed.
Fair enough. This is your opportunity to (re)express your real position, since I seem to be misapprehending it. As I said, it was my impression that you want to make conventional abortion illegal, forcing women to donate an unwanted fetus to some scientific endeavor -- one which may or may not have need of it, but that's another issue. If that's not your intent then we're just making sound and fury.
Also, addressing the "freedom of the woman", it would be exactly the same for her. In my proposition it includes the right of the mother to reject the fetus and allows for another the chance to accept it. Often people wait years upon years to gain adoption of a young child at birth, no longer would they have to wait so long. We'd have to work to remove the stigma of adoption in society, make it more accessible, including to homosexual partners, and cheaper.
That option exists now. It is medically risky and exceedingly expensive, but it exists. I don't see how this has any implications for public policy . . . unless you intend to criminalize traditional abortion.
True there would be issues with this, as there are with the current system, but we can always work with the change rather than this oddly conservative view of yours that we must not change one iota of this current system.
It is not my view that we must not change the current system. I do believe that there really isn't a current system, because the anti-abortion forces refuse to let the legally mandated system function.
 
I know it is easier to argue against your presumption (yes Dixie, it is the right word)

Correct! ...and "presumptuousness" would have been the incorrect word! You don't need to explain it to me, I am clear on it, Maine is the one who has a problem with it.
I'm sure you know it was just a joke...
 
Excuse me? What stands in the way of any woman who wants to donate her embryo to such an endeavor right now? Nothing at all, so far as I know. Certainly not any pro-choice advocates. Nor does any interpretation of Roe v. Wade, no matter how broad.

The fact that they would work to end that life, therefore many stand in the way because of the morality of it. The Fed Gov't under just such a person would not fund such research, etc. So "excuse me" but I do live in the reality of the situation and offer a solution that both sides could embrace.

But what implications does this have for public policy? None that I can see. We certainly can't require that women make such a donation in place of a D&C, say. The opportunities for doing so simply aren't there.

Just as we cannot make somebody donate a kidney upon death. But since such a program has, even if successful, the same effect for the woman as an abortion (the unwanted child would be removed and she would have no further responsibility toward it) it gives a more reasoned choice.

Perhaps I do misunderstand your position. Do you want to make this option available to women or do you want to force them to take it, whether it is available or not? If the former then we have no argument and I owe you an apology. If the latter, as I'd thought, then we're right back where we started.

I would prefer if we chose to do this as a society rather than abortion. As I stated, the effect would be the same for the woman in the end. She could choose to carry or not and to raise a child or not, with much the same danger, all while society would not work to end lives wholesale without purpose other than to appease such a choice.

I think not. Not if you're intent upon forcing women to make such a donation rather than get an abortion.

So you would force them to have only abortion as an option. To keep such a choice out of the reach of most women because of the cost...

Fair enough. This is your opportunity to (re)express your real position, since I seem to be misapprehending it. As I said, it was my impression that you want to make conventional abortion illegal, forcing women to donate an unwanted fetus to some scientific endeavor -- one which may or may not have need of it, but that's another issue. If that's not your intent then we're just making sound and fury.
Like I said, then it is your intent to force them to choose to kill or not kill. As I said I would prefer society made such an effort standard, but it isn't a requirement to find a real choice for reproduction for women. Such a program would advance this science well beyond what it is currently.

That option exists now. It is medically risky and exceedingly expensive, but it exists. I don't see how this has any implications for public policy . . . unless you intend to criminalize traditional abortion.
It is not my view that we must not change the current system. I do believe that there really isn't a current system, because the anti-abortion forces refuse to let the legally mandated system function.

You keep saying, "Unless you intend". I intend only on promoting a solution, workable between both sides of the issue, that allows women to have much the same choice without the negative of working toward the sole solution of death for the unwanted.
 
Main Entry: pre·sump·tu·ous
Pronunciation: pri-'z&m(p)-ch&-w&s, -ch&s, -sh&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French presumptious, from Late Latin praesumptuosus, irregular from praesumptio
: overstepping due bounds (as of propriety or courtesy) : taking liberties
- pre·sump·tu·ous·ly adverb
- pre·sump·tu·ous·ness noun

Note the noun at the end there. Now, let's compare this with the original quote:
I recognize there is a certain presumptuousness - a certain audacity - to this announcement. I know I haven't spent a lot of time learning the ways of Washington. But I've been there long enough to know that the ways of Washington must change.
While the passive voice undoubtedly set on edge the teeth of some purists and pundits of style, it was grammatically quite correct.

The hijackers will now return to their seats or else be flushed down the drain with the blue fluid.
 
Back
Top