The best arguments atheists and religionists have been able to muster

[IBDaMann]

Atheists
Materialistic determinism: all events, all human actions, morals, conscience are ultimately reducible to physics and material factors.

Science is atheistic and can be used by all people of all religions.

Religionists
Design: the lawful order and rational intelligibility of the universe; the fine tuning of the mathematical properties of the cosmos.

The universe appears to be a random dust cloud This precludes any sort of order or tuning. Religion typically preaches order in/by the supernatural, e.g. heaven, nirvana, tao, holy spirit, etc

 

[IBDaMann]

People like Jesus, Confucius, Siddartha Gautama, Zarathustra would never have had to exist if most people didn't need to be guided to the truth.

Show me this obligation they had to exist. Are you stating that Jesus would somehow not have existed if only one sheep were lost?

 

[Litmus]

True moral knowledge independent of opinion and popular consensus.

you said there was objective morality written on the heart.

what is it?

morality is the behaviors that create a high trust society in which humans thrive.

you want violence and double standards and so seek to pervert the human mind.

do better.

 

[Margot]

I have about three hundred posts on this board saying there is an objective moral truth written on our hearts. That does not mean we aren't supposed to learn it, discover it, cultivate it. People like Jesus, Confucius, Siddartha Gautama, Zarathustra would never have had to exist if most people didn't need to be guided to the truth.

That's true for our Spirit, but not our Flesh!

 

[Litmus]

People like Jesus, Confucius, Siddartha Gautama, Zarathustra would never have had to exist if most people didn't need to be guided to the truth.....

you still are clinging to this grain of elitism.

that's what religions is to you, a vehicle of control.

many people are as wise as Jesus and Buddha, they are just not famous because that's an empty goal.

"there goes my hero, he's ordinary" -- Foo Fighters.

 

[ZenMode]

Atheists
Materialistic determinism: all events, all human actions, morals, conscience are ultimately reducible to physics and material factors.


Religionists
Design: the lawful order and rational intelligibility of the universe; the fine tuning of the mathematical properties of the cosmos.

The best argument for atheism is simply requiring theists to apply the same requirement for belief in a god that they do for a belief in Santa Claus.

 

[Cypress]

The best argument for atheism is simply requiring theists to apply the same requirement for belief in a god that they do for a belief in Santa Claus.

That kind of trivializing of the topic has never been even modestly convincing or persuasive to me.

First, is assumes all knowledge has to come from sensory perception or empirical data. It does not. We do not have sensory perception or empirical data for quantum many worlds, the multiverse, or hyperdimensional space. But they might conceivably be possible simply on the basis of reasoning and logical inference.

Secondly, the universe needs an explanation for a first cause, and an explanation for its rational intelligibility. Santa Claus and Leprechauns are totally superfluous to the universe and are not an explanation of anything.

 

[Mason 22]

what is that objective moral truth?

That we're all immoral sinners ,and that sin is a wall between us and the creator.
All the universe is in balance except the soul of humans and our infected flesh.

 

[Mason 22]

Science is atheistic and can be used by all people of all religions.


The universe appears to be a random dust cloud This precludes any sort of order or tuning. Religion typically preaches order in/by the supernatural, e.g. heaven, nirvana, tao, holy spirit, etc

Holy Spirit! That's just a concept, till you actually have the Holy Spirit, then that changes everything for you! That's a direct connection with YHWH!
But incomprehensible to those without it!

 

[Litmus]

That we're all immoral sinners ,and that sin is a wall between us and the creator.
All the universe is in balance except the soul of humans and our infected flesh.

that sounds a little fucked up.

I think its something about empathy.

don't do to others what you would not want done to you.

just because Jesus said it too doesn't make it irrational or anything.

if Jesus said 2+2= 4 would that make math a religious subject?

 

[Mason 22]

that sounds a little fucked up.

I think its something about empathy.

don't do to others what you would not want done to you.

just because Jesus said it too doesn't make it irrational or anything.

if Jesus said 2+2= 4 would that make math a religious subject?

It is fucked up! But true

 

[IBDaMann]

Holy Spirit! That's just a concept, till you actually have the Holy Spirit, then that changes everything for you!

The Holy Spirit is nonetheless supernatural.

 

[Mason 22]

The Holy Spirit is nonetheless supernatural.

True

 

[Cypress]

what is that objective moral truth?

Do the hard work yourself and don't ask obscure people on the internet to teach you. Read the important scriptures of Buddhism, Christianity, Taoism, Hinduism, Judaism, Confucianism, Stoicism and you will learn they all are on a trajectory towards approximately the same set of basic universal values, at least within the margin of error.

 

[ZenMode]

That kind of trivializing of the topic has never been even modestly convincing or persuasive to me.

First, is assumes all knowledge has to come from sensory perception or empirical data. It does not. We do not have sensory perception or empirical data for quantum many worlds, the multiverse, or hyperdimensional space. But they might conceivably be possible simply on the basis of reasoning and logical inference.

I'm not talking about just knowledge. If someone said "Well, the Earth isn't flat, but there could be planets that are flat, but we just can't see them." we are going to reason, based on what we know and believe, to decided if that claim is likely to be true. Are you on the fence regarding the existence of Zeus, Apollo, Athena, etc?

Secondly, the universe needs an explanation for a first cause, and an explanation for its rational intelligibility. Santa Claus and Leprechauns are totally superfluous to the universe and are not an explanation of anything.

Sure, there's an explanation for the universe but, given that there is no non-circumstantial evidence for any god that man has created, why would you automatically go that route?

 

[Litmus]

Do the hard work yourself and don't ask obscure people on the internet to teach you. Read the important scriptures of Buddhism, Christianity, Taoism, Hinduism, Judaism, Confucianism, Stoicism and you will learn they all are on a trajectory towards approximately the same set of basic universal values, at least within the margin of error.

you said an objective moral truth was inscribed on the human heart.

that's a pretty short sentence.

it should fit in a fortune cookie like the golden rule does.

does the golden rule work for you, if not why not?

 

[Cypress]

I'm not talking about just knowledge. If someone said "Well, the Earth isn't flat, but there could be planets that are flat, but we just can't see them." we are going to reason, based on what we know and believe, to decided if that claim is likely to be true. Are you on the fence regarding the existence of Zeus, Apollo, Athena, etc? Sure, there's an explanation for the universe but, given that there is no non-circumstantial evidence for any god that man has created, why would you automatically go that route?

Circumstantial evidence is frequently all we have to work with, and in formal logic it's use is called inference to the best explanation.

Zeus was a mythological being only found in literature. Jesus was an actual historical person, the only question being whether he was who he and his disciples claimed he was.

We don't have a scientific answer, and probably never will, as to the first cause or the reason for the lawful organization of the cosmos. I am not ready to claim the knowledge that it's impossible for an eternal logos, a universal spirit, a Spinoza's god, a purposeful organizing principle to be underlying reality.


"There are more things in heaven and Earth Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies."

 

[Cypress]

you said an objective moral truth was inscribed on the human heart.

that's a pretty short sentence.

it should fit in a fortune cookie like the golden rule does.

does the golden rule work for you, if not why not?

Short pithy aphorisms are for children.

You can't fit the Sermon on the Mount, or the Analects of Confucius on a fortune cookie if you want to be a thinking adult and reflect on their significance and wisdom.

 

[Litmus]

Short pithy aphorisms are for children.

Yet morality is actually very simple.

You can't fit the Sermon on the Mount, or the Analects of Confucius on a fortune cookie if you want to be a thinking adult and reflect on their significance and wisdom.

but you said you could fit it on the human heart.

if you cant summarize your stuff you're a bullshit artist.

do better.

 

[Ross Dolan]

That's true for our Spirit, but not our Flesh!

The best argument for atheism is simply requiring theists to apply the same requirement for belief in a god that they do for a belief in Santa Claus.

Secondly, the universe needs an explanation for a first cause, and an explanation for its rational intelligibility. Santa Claus and Leprechauns are totally superfluous to the universe and are not an explanation of anything.

That we're all immoral sinners ,and that sin is a wall between us and the creator.
All the universe is in balance except the soul of humans and our infected flesh.

The simplest and most truthful answer to all this stuff is:

I do not know if there are gods involved in the Reality...or if there are no gods...and there seems to be no way to determine which it is.

It has to be one way or the other. Either there are no gods...or there is at least one.

Anyone backing one way over the other is doing it on a blind guess.

It seems to me that not making a blind guess in either direction is a better way to handle things.