The best arguments atheists and religionists have been able to muster

[Litmus]

but you said you could fit it on the human heart.

if you cant summarize your stuff you're a bullshit artist.

do better.

The simplest and most truthful answer to all this stuff is:

I do not know if there are gods involved in the Reality...or if there are no gods...and there seems to be no way to determine which it is.

It has to be one way or the other. Either there are no gods...or there is at least one.

Anyone backing one way over the other is doing it on a blind guess.

It seems to me that not making a blind guess in either direction is a better way to handle things.

but you're still not appreciating religion properly.

is the value of religion whether Gods exist or not?

 

[ZenMode]

Circumstantial evidence is frequently all we have to work with, and in formal logic it's use is called inference to the best explanation.

Zeus was a mythological being only found in literature. Jesus was an actual historical person, the only question being whether he was who he and his disciples claimed he was.

We don't have a scientific answer, and probably never will, as to the first cause or the reason for the lawful organization of the cosmos. I am not ready to claim the knowledge that it's impossible for an eternal logos, a universal spirit, a Spinoza's god, a purposeful organizing principle to be underlying reality.


"There are more things in heaven and Earth Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophies."

I wouldn't say we frequently use circumstantial evidence, but we sometimes do. Jesus' existence has nothing to do with the Christian god. There were lots of Jewish preachers at the time. None of them prove the existence of the Christian god any more than preachers of other religions prove the existence of their gods.

Throughout history, we didn't have scientific answers for a lot of things... like where the Sun went at night or any understanding of disease, which meant humans had no understanding of why people got sick, were in pain and died. That's how superstitious activities like sacrificing humans and animals started. People were treated for unusual behavior by drilling holes in their skull. It's also among the reasons why humans started inventing imaginary beings called gods.

A lack of scientific understanding now isn't justification for throwing out all reason and logic and resorting to fairytales.

 

[Cypress]

I wouldn't say we frequently use circumstantial evidence, but we sometimes do. Jesus' existence has nothing to do with the Christian god. There were lots of Jewish preachers at the time. None of them prove the existence of the Christian god any more than preachers of other religions prove the existence of their gods.

I would say we use circumstantial evidence all the bloody time. Most wives catch their husbands cheating based on clues from circumstantial evidence. Parents suspect their teenagers are doing drugs based on circumstantial evidence. If you went through life having to prove everything with direct observations and scientific proof, you would not get very far. Circumstantial evidence is given a bad name because our cable, streaming, and television culture has swamped us with Law and Order, CSI, and all the pantheon of courtroom drama shows. Legal proceedings are only one way of acquiring knowledge - and the burden of proof in a legal proceeding is far different than the one we use for everyday life.

Throughout history, we didn't have scientific answers for a lot of things... like where the Sun went at night or any understanding of disease, which meant humans had no understanding of why people got sick, were in pain and died. That's how superstitious activities like sacrificing humans and animals started. People were treated for unusual behavior by drilling holes in their skull. It's also among the reasons why humans started inventing imaginary beings called gods.

A lack of scientific understanding now isn't justification for throwing out all reason and logic and resorting to fairytales.

Science actually explains a lot less than most laypersons realize. Because science is so influential in our lives due to technology and popular culture, science has been placed on a pedestal. I actually think thoughtful trained scientists know the limitations of science better than laypersons do.

Something just doesn't come from nothing. That is the big miracle atheists want us to accept. Religionists obviously have their belief in a myriad of miracles too.

It is perfectly rational to believe a lawfully ordered universe implies a law-giver, even if you cannot conduct a scientific experiment to prove it. I am not saying that is the truth, but it is perfectly rational to believe that.

 

[ZenMode]

I would say we use circumstantial evidence all the bloody time. Most wives catch their husbands cheating based on clues from circumstantial evidence. Parents suspect their teenagers are doing drugs based on circumstantial evidence. If you went through life having to prove everything with direct observations and scientific proof, you would not get very far. Circumstantial evidence is given a bad name because our cable, streaming, and television culture has swamped us with Law and Order, CSI, and all the pantheon of courtroom drama shows. Legal proceedings are only one way of acquiring knowledge - and the burden of proof in a legal proceeding is far different than the one we use for everyday life.


Science actually explains a lot less than most laypersons realize. Because science is so influential in our lives due to technology and popular culture, science has been placed on a pedestal. I actually think thoughtful trained scientists know the limitations of science better than laypersons do.

Something just doesn't come from nothing. That is the big miracle atheists want us to accept. Religionists obviously have their belief in a myriad of miracles too.

It is perfectly rational to believe a lawfully ordered universe implies a law-giver, even if you cannot conduct a scientific experiment to prove it. I am not saying that is the truth, but it is perfectly rational to believe that.

Throughout history, I cannot think of one example of w
Men's superstitions being a more accurate or plausible explanation for something over science. Man didn't understand weather patterns, so he prayed to imaginary beings for rain. He didn't understand mental illness so he believed it was spirits invading a person's body. The list is endless of examples where man has tried to apply superstition to something that was later explained by science. Why do you believe that the existence of the universe is going to be the exception. More importantly, for people who are highly religious, why would you situate your entire life around something that is so incredibly unlikely to be true? I mean, it's one thing to be open-minded about the possibility of a creator. It's something else to organize your life around it.

 

[Daylight63]

Yup.

The atheists have more difficulty in seeing that they and the theists are both manifestations of guesswork...beliefs. But don't get me wrong, the theists do have difficulty seeing it. Just not as much as do atheists.

DEFINITELY all guesswork. I kinda like the atheist approach, though, that the guesses are, as you said, confessed to. Religion doesn't usually admit to that. But then it isn't really dishonesty, they actually believe the claims of their faith, so it's a pretty honest position even if it is as "questionable" as the other side.

 

[Daylight63]

but you're still not appreciating religion properly.

is the value of religion whether Gods exist or not?

That's a good question. Religion has done a LOT of good. So it helps draw people to a good common goal. Religion also offers the most important thing of all: COMFORT.

Comfort in times when there doesn't appear to be an answer. Comfort for all those disturbing difficult questions about the nature of reality and our place in it.

It is a solid adaptation of the human mind.

But it can and has been responsible for a lot of bad stuff, too. So it isn't a perfect solution.

 

[Litmus]

That's a good question. Religion has done a LOT of good. So it helps draw people to a good common goal. Religion also offers the most important thing of all: COMFORT.

Comfort in times when there doesn't appear to be an answer. Comfort for all those disturbing difficult questions about the nature of reality and our place in it.

It is a solid adaptation of the human mind.

But it can and has been responsible for a lot of bad stuff, too. So it isn't a perfect solution.

thank you , fine sir.

 

[Cypress]

Throughout history, I cannot think of one example of w
Men's superstitions being a more accurate or plausible explanation for something over science. Man didn't understand weather patterns, so he prayed to imaginary beings for rain. He didn't understand mental illness so he believed it was spirits invading a person's body. The list is endless of examples where man has tried to apply superstition to something that was later explained by science. Why do you believe that the existence of the universe is going to be the exception. More importantly, for people who are highly religious, why would you situate your entire life around something that is so incredibly unlikely to be true? I mean, it's one thing to be open-minded about the possibility of a creator. It's something else to organize your life around it.

I'm not here to pass judgement on people who organize their life around the Christian, Buddhist, or Jewish faith. That is what rabbis, nuns, and Buddhist monks do, and I am not in a position to say they are wasting their lives.

It is self-evident that knowledge does not require certainty or proof.
If we need to have certainty and proof about everything, we would not be able to function, take action, and make judgements.

That is why I never liked the claim that having religious belief is stupid unless one can provide observational proof or empirical data.

I don't think it is irrational to believe a lawful universe points to a law-maker. And on the flipside, I don't think it's irrational to believe that the lawful universe came into existence for unfathomable reasons which are ultimately physical and inanimate.

The complaints atheists and religionists have about each other usually boil down to emotion and antagonism, rather than a clear-headed understanding of how humans acquire knowledge.

 

[Margot]

The simplest and most truthful answer to all this stuff is:

I do not know if there are gods involved in the Reality...or if there are no gods...and there seems to be no way to determine which it is.

It has to be one way or the other. Either there are no gods...or there is at least one.

Anyone backing one way over the other is doing it on a blind guess.

It seems to me that not making a blind guess in either direction is a better way to handle things.

You're assuming Blind Faith! But that's not the case, as always those with the Holy Spirit have the hotline to YHWH!
But I absolutely see why intellectually it looks like Blind Faith.

 

[Margot]

I'm not here to pass judgement on people who organize their life around the Christian, Buddhist, or Jewish faith. That is what rabbis, nuns, and Buddhist monks do, and I am not in a position to say they are wasting their lives.

It is self-evident that knowledge does not require certainty or proof.
If we need to have certainty and proof about everything, we would not be able to function, take action, and make judgements.

That is why I never liked the claim that having religious belief is stupid unless one can provide observational proof or empirical data.

I don't think it is irrational to believe a lawful universe points to a law-maker. And on the flipside, I don't think it's irrational to believe that the lawful universe came into existence for unfathomable reasons which are ultimately physical and inanimate.

The complaints atheists and religionists have about each other usually boil down to emotion and antagonism, rather than a clear-headed understanding of how humans acquire knowledge.

Many are called few are Chosen!

 

[Ross Dolan]

You're assuming Blind Faith! But that's not the case, as always those with the Holy Spirit have the hotline to YHWH!
But I absolutely see why intellectually it looks like Blind Faith.

The main reason it looks like BLIND FAITH...is that it is BLIND FAITH.

Saying there is a GOD...is nothing but a blind guess about something unknown. Same thing goes for saying there are no gods. Nothing but a blind guess about something unknown.

You have finally to get that, Margot. It is important.

 

[Margot]

I wouldn't say we frequently use circumstantial evidence, but we sometimes do. Jesus' existence has nothing to do with the Christian god. There were lots of Jewish preachers at the time. None of them prove the existence of the Christian god any more than preachers of other religions prove the existence of their gods.

Throughout history, we didn't have scientific answers for a lot of things... like where the Sun went at night or any understanding of disease, which meant humans had no understanding of why people got sick, were in pain and died. That's how superstitious activities like sacrificing humans and animals started. People were treated for unusual behavior by drilling holes in their skull. It's also among the reasons why humans started inventing imaginary beings called gods.

A lack of scientific understanding now isn't justification for throwing out all reason and logic and resorting to fairytales.

The Christian God is the Judaism God YHWH, the difference is whether Jesus was YHWH in the flesh,or another in a long line of fake Messiahs. Christians say yes! Jews say ,How could Jesus be Messiah ,he didn't fulfill all Prophecies of the Messiah.
Christians reply ,the ones that weren't fulfilled will be fulfilled at the second coming! That's where we stand right now ,as far as Christians and Jews.

 

[Margot]

I would say we use circumstantial evidence all the bloody time. Most wives catch their husbands cheating based on clues from circumstantial evidence. Parents suspect their teenagers are doing drugs based on circumstantial evidence. If you went through life having to prove everything with direct observations and scientific proof, you would not get very far. Circumstantial evidence is given a bad name because our cable, streaming, and television culture has swamped us with Law and Order, CSI, and all the pantheon of courtroom drama shows. Legal proceedings are only one way of acquiring knowledge - and the burden of proof in a legal proceeding is far different than the one we use for everyday life.


Science actually explains a lot less than most laypersons realize. Because science is so influential in our lives due to technology and popular culture, science has been placed on a pedestal. I actually think thoughtful trained scientists know the limitations of science better than laypersons do.

Something just doesn't come from nothing. That is the big miracle atheists want us to accept. Religionists obviously have their belief in a myriad of miracles too.

It is perfectly rational to believe a lawfully ordered universe implies a law-giver, even if you cannot conduct a scientific experiment to prove it. I am not saying that is the truth, but it is perfectly rational to believe that.

Could the universe be created without intelligent design!?

 

[Margot]

The main reason it looks like BLIND FAITH...is that it is BLIND FAITH.

Saying there is a GOD...is nothing but a blind guess about something unknown. Same thing goes for saying there are no gods. Nothing but a blind guess about something unknown.

You have finally to get that, Margot. It is important.

That's the intellectual definition! But the Holy Spirit is what makes it not Blind Faith! But no one without the Holy Spirit can comprehend that simple fact!
Your pov is exactly what mine was before my Epiphany.

 

[ZenMode]

I'm not here to pass judgement on people who organize their life around the Christian, Buddhist, or Jewish faith. That is what rabbis, nuns, and Buddhist monks do, and I am not in a position to say they are wasting their lives.

It is self-evident that knowledge does not require certainty or proof.
If we need to have certainty and proof about everything, we would not be able to function, take action, and make judgements.

That is why I never liked the claim that having religious belief is stupid unless one can provide observational proof or empirical data.

I don't think it is irrational to believe a lawful universe points to a law-maker. And on the flipside, I don't think it's irrational to believe that the lawful universe came into existence for unfathomable reasons which are ultimately physical and inanimate.

The complaints atheists and religionists have about each other usually boil down to emotion and antagonism, rather than a clear-headed understanding of how humans acquire knowledge.

I'm not saying religious belief is stupid, necessarily.

I am saying that given the track record of religion versus science, I don't see why anyone would still default to religion.

I also don't understand believing in God's based on one circumstantial situation; the existence of the universe.

 

[Margot]

I'm not saying religious belief is stupid, necessarily.

I am saying that given the track record of religion versus science, I don't see why anyone would still default to religion.

I also don't understand believing in God's based on one circumstantial situation; the existence of the universe.

Don't get organized religion confused with a personal relationship with YHWH through the Holy Spirit

 

[ZenMode]

Don't get organized religion confused with a personal relationship with YHWH through the Holy Spirit

Of all the gods that man has believed in and written about, why believe that one particular God exists and is the so-called right one to believe in?

 

[Margot]

Of all the gods that man has believed in and written about, why believe that one particular God exists and is the so-called right one to believe in?

I had an Epiphany of the Holy Spirit! I didn't chose a religion, I wasn't remotely religious in the least!
I was chosen.

 

[Hume]

I had an Epiphany of the Holy Spirit! I didn't chose a religion, I wasn't remotely religious in the least!
I was chosen.

We know. God chooses you.

 

[ZenMode]

I had an Epiphany of the Holy Spirit! I didn't chose a religion, I wasn't remotely religious in the least!
I was chosen.

What would you say about the people who have an equal experience with other religions? For example, there are Well educated,non Arab people around the globe who have turned their life over to Islam for the same reason.