The bible

[Concart]

Agreed but there’s some very useful philosophy int the Scriptures. E.g.:

God himself will kill tens of thousands if it pleases him: 1st Samuel 6:19 in the King James Version: “And he smote the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men (50,070)”.

Perversity and human trafficking condoned: "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse." (1 Peter 2:18)

Sex slavery condoned: "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again."
Exodus 21: 7-8

There’s lots more examples but this is great stuff!

Spot on. And sadly, those types of verses, whether they come from the OT or the Koran, are used to justify unspeakable violence. Not to mention a health dose of misogyny.

 

[anonymoose]

Did you forget Northern Ireland? You are free to believe as you choose, but to deny the absolute devastation of organized religion you have to be willfully ignorant. Most nationalism is deeply rooted in religion.

Look at the Sunnis and Shias.

 

[Concart]

Look at the Sunnis and Shias.

You beat me to the next point. Much of the violence and hatred is groups of people who share a common belief. Sunni and Shia is the worst and is ongoing. But Catholic vs. Protestant is centuries old as well.

 

[Cypress]

Did you forget Northern Ireland? You are free to believe as you choose, but to deny the absolute devastation of organized religion you have to be willfully ignorant. Most nationalism is deeply rooted in religion.

Northern Ireland conflict is at least as much political and nationalist as it is religious --- Protestants and Catholics have peacefully coexisted elsewhere in Europe, for the most part, for the last three centuries, though there was always latent discrimination in places.


I believe the question being asked is whether religion is the most evil thing in the world, per post 1034..

I submit that the conflict in northern Ireland doesn't even come remotely close to the mass death, repression, and devastation caused by colonialism, capitalism, nationalism, fascism, and communism in the last couple of centuries.

 

[Cypress]

My “religion” is Taoism. although It’s not a religion for me. I have none.
But if worshiping the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy works for whoever, I’m all for it (for that person).

If there had never been a religious tradition called Daoism, you wouldn't have been able to co-opt it's philosophical and spiritual practices, while stripping away the religious significance and implying you are irreligious.

So the fact that religion has directly and beneficially impacted your life, even if only by osmosis, makes it ironic that you would join a crusade to suggest religion is evil.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

it is incredibly stupid to try to define Christianity to include the beliefs of the very people they threw out because of what they believed........

would you say Stalin agreed with Lenin about the things he was killed for saying?........was Socrates poisoned because the Greeks agreed with what he was teaching?............you are the one lacking an understanding of history, not me......

You haven't a clue. Sorry, PMP, but you are way out of your depth on this. You have the faith of a child. Which is good, because Jesus definitely wanted you to be that way, but for some people (people who read) there is so much more to your faith than you will ever know.

But that's OK. Your faith appears kinda empty and meaningless even to you so I guess it's all OK.

 

[gfm7175]

I have read Romans.

It is very clear to me that you have not.

It does not answer the question I asked...

... and this is how I know that you haven't. If you have, then you would already know the answer to your question.

and neither did you.

I sure did. I told you to read the book of Romans. Your question is answered right there.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

The Bible is just mythology. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sure. But mythology that is important to understand here in the West. The important bit is to understand what the people who take it all literally are thinking because they often turn into Taliban and any other examples of religious revanchism throughout history.

Organized religion is the greatest and most evil scam ever perpetrated on man.

In some ways. But in some ways it has brought some good to the world. Religion doesn't keep anyone from doing whatever evil they want to do but it also provides some believers with the leverage to do the GOOD in their hearts. And there is some good in Christianity.

A LOT of evil has been done in its name as well. A LOT.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

as well it should be obvious that if you deny the divinity of Jesus it's not logical to call yourself "Christ"ian, since the Christ IS divine by definition.....settle for Jesonian and stop pretending you are something you aren't......

Some Christians DIDN'T deny the divinity of Jesus but still held him SEPARATE FROM GOD. That's the point you seem to be missing. You seem to think the concept of the Trinity as three co-equal and homoiousious is the only version of Christianity that has ever existed. You couldn't be more wrong.

You act as if there was some original founding of Christianity that happened 3 days after Jesus was crucified that codified everything you believe today. That isn't even rational. It took CENTURIES. LITERALLY CENTURIES for the Christian faith to look even MARGINALLY like what it is you mouth on Sunday morning.

You know why you recite those endless CREEDS?

When you recite ("mouth") the Nicene Creed what do you think is behind that? Care to enlighten us with your own version of Church history?

 

[Ross Dolan]

It is very clear to me that you have not.

It cannot be "very clear" to you that I have not...BECAUSE I MOST ASSUREDLY HAVE READ ROMANS.

... and this is how I know that you haven't. If you have, then you would already know the answer to your question.

Romans does not answer my question. My question is, From WHAT do they have to be saved? Romans does not answer that question...neither does anything else, especially people like you who like to pretend you have.

I sure did. I told you to read the book of Romans. Your question is answered right there.

You have NOT answered my question...and now you are just being silly about it. I suspect that is because I have my own answer to the question...and it puts that god of yours in a horrible light.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Sure. But mythology that is important to understand here in the West. The important bit is to understand what the people who take it all literally are thinking because they often turn into Taliban and any other examples of religious revanchism throughout history.



In some ways. But in some ways it has brought some good to the world. Religion doesn't keep anyone from doing whatever evil they want to do but it also provides some believers with the leverage to do the GOOD in their hearts. And there is some good in Christianity.

A LOT of evil has been done in its name as well. A LOT.

My inclination is to agree with you and Concart. I have written this many times in the past, but will repeat it for now:

While I do not have enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess about the existence of gods...I certainly have enough upon which to make a guess about the Bible.

My guess, for what it is worth, is that the Bible is a very self-serving history (of sorts) of the early Hebrew people...a relatively unsophisticated, unknowledgeable, superstitious people who had many enemies in the areas where they lived. Their enemies worshiped barbarous, vengeful, wrathful, unforgiving, demanding, murderous, petty gods. And to protect themselves from those gods, they invented an especially barbarous, vengeful, wrathful, unforgiving, demanding, murderous, petty god...and worshiped it. The story seems to be a necessary mythology. The mythology served a needed purpose at that time and I can easily understand why the ancient Hebrews felt about it the way they did.

The fact that modern theists feel the way they do about it...is disappointing and disheartening.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

It cannot be "very clear" to you that I have not...BECAUSE I MOST ASSUREDLY HAVE READ ROMANS.




Romans does not answer my question. My question is, From WHAT do they have to be saved? Romans does not answer that question...neither does anything else, especially people like you who like to pretend you have.




You have NOT answered my question...and now you are just being silly about it. I suspect that is because I have my own answer to the question...and it puts that god of yours in a horrible light.

The core concept of Christianity is that of "original sin". That's a pretty repellent concept that people who didn't do anything in particular can still be held responsible for "original sin" and can still be punished for it. But in reality the concept of "Original Sin" is more acceptable as the concept of "We are all fallen, imperfect creatures".

When you think of it that way it makes more sense. We are mere humans. We are flawed and we are all of us capable of evil and good. We make mistakes and sometimes we even do things WILLFULLY that are evil. We do good, sure but we are also prone to bad. It comes with the territory of being an imperfect being.

The Fall discussed in Genesis is a great (imho) analogy for growing up. As a child you are innocent and no one really holds you accountable for your bad actions. It isn't until you are old enough to understand that you have agency and can choose how you act then it is INCUMBENT UPON YOU TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT when you are able to.

Since we are imperfect we can never BE perfect. We cannot be like God. But God's "Grace" is that He accepts us and will provide us with salvation from the evil we do even though we don't technically deserve it. We cannot "earn" forgiveness for the evil we do but God grants us grace so that we might still survive.

Now there's also a secular analogue here as well. If we understand that NONE of us are perfect people and we are ALL OF US prone to occasionally stepping on others' toes, maybe the best thing WE can do is provide "grace" to our fellow people to accept their imperfection knowing that we are, ourselves, liable to that same imperfection.

This is why I actually like Christian soteriology (the Grace concept specifically) so much even though I am no longer a believer. Because I know I'm a bad person at times (many times) but that I'm not pure evil. I'm capable of good too. But I will harm others (usually unintentionally but occasionally intentionally) and I hope that in the fullness of time I might be granted the grace of acceptance by my fellow people and in return I must agree to grant them the same grace.

That's how I see it at any rate. And I've been assured by most Christians I talk to that I am wrong.

 

[Ross Dolan]

Perry, the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden should be treated like the story of the sun being carried across the sky in a chariot. It is an absurdity. Neither Adam nor Eve knew that there was anything wrong with going against the wishes (dictates) of the god. There was no reason for them to suspect there would be punishment involved. The were innocents in every sense of the word.

Telling innocents like Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of a specific tree...is like telling a kindergarten kid to play or touch anything in a large room...EXCEPT THE BIG RED BUTTON RIGHT IN MIDDLE OF THE ROOM...ON THE TABLE...OVER NEAR THE WINDOW...CLOSE TO ALL THE OTHER BUTTONS THAT YOU ARE ALLOWED TO TOUCH.

What the fuck!

Anyway, I am still waiting for that other guy to actually answer my question. Next he will probably refer me to Wikipedia...or something like that. He apparently is not going to actually answer the question.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Perry, the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden should be treated like the story of the sun being carried across the sky in a chariot. It is an absurdity. Neither Adam nor Eve knew that there was anything wrong with going against the wishes (dictates) of the god. There was no reason for them to suspect there would be punishment involved. The were innocents in every sense of the word.

Telling innocents like Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of a specific tree...is like telling a kindergarten kid to play or touch anything in a large room...EXCEPT THE BIG RED BUTTON RIGHT IN MIDDLE OF THE ROOM...ON THE TABLE...OVER NEAR THE WINDOW...CLOSE TO ALL THE OTHER BUTTONS THAT YOU ARE ALLOWED TO TOUCH.

That's why I called it an analogy.

It isn't a literal thing.

And the tree was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil which is why my analogy actually works.

 

[anonymoose]

. If there had never been a religious tradition called Daoism, you wouldn't have been able to co-opt it's philosophical and spiritual practices, while stripping away the religious significance and implying you are irreligious.

Thank you for that perceptive insight. You may as well told me the sky is blue on a cloudless day.

So the fact that religion has directly and beneficially impacted your life, even if only by osmosis, makes it ironic that you would join a crusade to suggest religion is evil.

Apparently you missed this:

if worshiping the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy works for whoever, I’m all for it (for that person).

 

[Concart]

Sure. But mythology that is important to understand here in the West. The important bit is to understand what the people who take it all literally are thinking because they often turn into Taliban and any other examples of religious revanchism throughout history.



In some ways. But in some ways it has brought some good to the world. Religion doesn't keep anyone from doing whatever evil they want to do but it also provides some believers with the leverage to do the GOOD in their hearts. And there is some good in Christianity.

A LOT of evil has been done in its name as well. A LOT.

I think the good lies in people. But I pretty much agree with everything you said here.

 

[Cypress]

Thank you for that perceptive insight. You may as well told me the sky is blue on a cloudless day.

Apparently you missed this:

It's just not Everyday you see someone denigrating religion, when in fact their life has benefited and been enriched by ancient religious tradition, in this case Daoism.


At least in western civilization, the reason religion gets so readily conflated with violence and war is largely because of the wars of religion in the 17th century, and the crusades and inquisition, of the late Middle Ages.

That was 500 years ago or more.

Lenin, Mao, Stalin, and Hitler were responsible for the most mass death in the modern era.

Today, as a general rule, nobody is going to war for Catholicism, nobody is dying for Protestantism. Ukrainians are dying for Ukranian nationalism, not for the Ukranian Orthodox Church. People in northern Ireland were willing to die, first and foremost, for Irish or British nationalism. Wars since the 17th century have been fought largely because of nationalism, colonialism, imperialism, land, and resources.

I would say one of the few examples in the west where religious motivation played a significant role was the wars of ethnic cleansing in the Balkans.

But even taking that Into account, the amount of mass death and destruction caused directly by religion in the last 500 years is minor, compared to the other economic, political, and ideological motivations I alluded to.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

You haven't a clue. Sorry, PMP, but you are way out of your depth on this.

ROFL.....back in your corner, newb.....you're dumber than shit......

 

[PostmodernProphet]

Some Christians DIDN'T deny the divinity of Jesus but still held him SEPARATE FROM GOD. That's the point you seem to be missing.

???....that isn't even what we are discussing.....what the fuck are you going on about now......are you turning three in one into seperate but equal?......Jesus isn't "like" God......Jesus IS God.....that is what all Christians believe.......THAT is why its in the creeds......like the Nicene creed which summarizes what all Christians believe in and heretics do not......

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made.

sound familiar?......

 

[PostmodernProphet]

From WHAT do they have to be saved? Romans does not answer that question

Romans 7

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.