The Conservative Tradition

Frank Apisa said:
I do not use the term "conservative" in conversations here...and frankly, I do not care what the term "conservative" means to this professor or anyone else...nor do I care what it means to be a "conservative."

I USE THE TERM "AMERICAN CONSERVATIVES"...AND I CARE VERY MUCH ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AN AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE.

It is my opinion that "what it means to be an American conservative" can be summed up by, "I've got mine, fuck you." Sometimes the American conservative position is expressed, "I've got mine, fuck everyone else."

Just sayin'!
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I was being generous at characterizing rightwing philosophy as cynical, pessimistic, skeptical.
But, as you suggest, you could really just throw the word selfish in there.

On this tangent, I also do not think the word "conservative" means very much in the America of 2019.

I have always maintained that the number of people who are the genuine ideological soul mates of William Buckley or Ayn Rand could metaphorically fit into a telephone booth.

Hardly anybody really gives a shit about the conservative Austrian school of economics.

This is why the terms teabagger, wingnut, white nationalist, Reich winger, are really what accurately describes the right side of the American political spectrum - the Trump loving faction of the electorate. Because it is largely based on resentment, cynicism, xenophobia, and grievance.
 
Cypress said:
No, as an ideological philosophy it does not come down to pedestrian policy proposals like whether or not we should fund Medicare, parks, and public libraries.

As an ideological and philosophical issue, it comes down to how one views human nature. Conservatives are cynical, skeptical, and pessimistic about human nature itself. That is exactly why you see teabaggers on this board complain that we cannot have a social welfare state because the "darkies', the poor people, the disadvantaged communities cannot be trusted - they will take advantage of it because their very nature is to be "takers", to be shiftless deadbeats, to beomce lazy lay-abouts.

And that is exactly what is going on, the billions of times we have seen conservatives write a post that blacks only vote Democratic Party "to get free stuff".
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you are conflating conservatism with racism, and old school "pull them up by their bootstraps" extremism.

It would be like me calling liberalism the same thing as income redistributing Socialism -
although the Dems are getting there. Still traditional liberalism isn't Socialism

Conserv. have a healthy disrespect for government because we respect it's power.
It slows down growth and eats tax dollars if not carefully applied .

I am not talking about views on human nature - that's extraneous and as uniformed
as your post on a profile of Trump supporters
 
I acquired this video course, and one of my first take-aways is conservatism was originally affiliated with tradition, respect for social hierarchy, maintenance of the socio-economic status quo, and resistance to any forms of change.

Conservatism did not become affiliated with the defense of free markets and capitalism until towards the end of the 19th century. Because fear of socialism. And the fuel driving this was fear of a nexus between socialism, women's rights, free love, and labor.

So of it I was generally aware of, but am filling in some blanks.

The Conservative Tradition
Professor Patrick N. Allitt, Ph.D.
Emory University

Opposition to suffrage was, in effect, the natural conservative position.
The debate over suffrage was affected by other political and intellectual trends of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, especially the rise of socialism.
A. Conservatives saw a continuum between socialism, free love, and women’s participation in politics.
B. At the other end of the political spectrum, the threat of German military power appeared in the debate.
C. The debate was sometimes cast in the language of evolution.

Women’s service throughout both economies during World War I was indispensable; it strengthened the suffragist position and led to a constitutional change in both nations.
Feminists were disappointed to see that most women voted the same way as their fathers or husbands.
The history of the antisuffragists has been all but forgotten; the price of defeat is oblivion.
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Next on the menu is a study of the conservative defense of Anglo-Saxon supremacy, opposition of the New Deal, isolationism in the face of the fascist threat.
 
Edmund Burke emphasized the importance of accepting the accumulated wisdom of the past rather than attempting to start the world over.

1. Change was necessary, but it should be gradual, alwaysmindful of the circumstances preceding it.
2. We should cultivate particular and local loyalties rather than adhering to grand abstractions.
3. We should be proud, rather than ashamed, of our comparative unimaginativeness, because it safeguards us from utopian folly.
4. We are guided by our prejudices, luckily—which means we don’t have to think out each new situation from first principles.
5. Burke argued that the principle of democracy was a dangerous abstraction, and he supported government moves to suppress its advocates.
 
Old Trapper said:
"Terry Kupers defines toxic masculinity as "the constellation of socially regressive male traits that serve to foster domination, the devaluation of women, homophobia and wanton violence". According to Kupers, toxic masculinity serves to outline aspects of hegemonic masculinity that are socially destructive, "such as misogyny, homophobia, greed, and violent domination". These traits are contrasted with more positive aspects of hegemonic masculinity such as "pride in [one's] ability to win at sports, to maintain solidarity with a friend, to succeed at work, or to provide for [one's] family".

Toxic masculine norms are a feature of life for men in American prisons, where they are reflected in the behaviour of both staff and inmates. The qualities of extreme self-reliance, domination of other men through violence, and avoiding the appearance of either femininity or weakness, comprise an unspoken code among prisoners. Suppressing vulnerable emotions is often adopted in order to successfully cope with the harsh conditions of prison life, defined by punishment, social isolation, and aggression. These factors likely play a role in suicide among male prisoners."
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Well Terry can take her toxic femininity and go fuck herself. I see no difference between her and Trump. Her comments are pseudo intellectual babble meant to marginalize men so she’s just a reverse Trumpster.
 
Cypress said:
I have a this video class on my watch list, partly because I decided I need to learn how it is possible that conservatives could have turned into fan boys of a shockingly dim witted and incompetent Reality TV host. What is it about Trumpf that inspires them to spend countless hours of their lived defending him, and providing cover for him?
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You big dummy, Trump is nothing but a puppet.....TRUMP was hand picked for the job as a CLEAN non-politician by the Patriots with power in this nation in order to clean house and jail as many of the One World Order criminals and enablers as possible. Just who do you think has access to the many voting machines around the nation? Patriots within the covert agencies of this nation. Why did Trump squeak by in many LIBERAL STATES and win the Electoral College? :laugh: You still have not figured it out?

Example. The Patriots helped Trump bait the left into doing something stupid. They knew the left could not resist the bait.....by pretending that Trump has something to hide within his IRS records. Trump deliberately stone walled the Media and baited the leftist politicians by refusing to release his IRS records. They fell for the bait......in the largest and most corrupt state government in the US......New York, the politicians have been baited into changing the laws regarding the IRS records....making an amendment that allows "only" politicians to be mandated to release their records in a classic left wing GOT'YA Trump MOVE.

https:www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/02/how-new-york-release-donald-trump-tax-returns-215094


What these idiots failed to comprehend.....TRUMP was picked and placed into power for a reason....he's squeaky clean. They will find nothing of value in the IRS records. What they have accomplished is making a path for the DOJ to audit the "MANY" left wing politicians that come from, lived and filed a tax return while being a resident of this state. Politicians such as the former US SENATOR.....CLINTON whose foundation has stoned walled the FEDS for years. More? Chuckie Schumer......Gillibrand.....Nadler...….more? You do the math. :bigthink:


This BIG DUMMY......has a plan....not of his own, he is only a patriot, one of the few that could actually get the job done. One of the first "sealed indictments" of the over 50K that exists today to be unsealed and executed?

E P S T E I N


The first of many to come. Steele was not questioned for over 15 hours by the Federal Prosecutors for NO REASON.....under oath, under the rules of perjury.

Just why do you assume that BARR and DURHAM suddenly appeared from semi-retirement? Both have navigated these corrupt waters before......while BARR is one the greatest legal minds in the United States. Simply look at the fake CENSUS question. He knows that he can use the 14th amendment to get the question back on the Census that was only removed via EO under BHO in 2010. Until Obama removed the question it was traditional as late as the 2000 Census. The only time the question of citizenship did not exist (in one form or another) was UNDER OBAMA. What TRUMP accomplished was "weeding" out and exposing John Roberts as a corrupt SCOTUS member. He enabled the unconstitutional Affordable Care Act to go into law.....now he is attempting to ignore the Constitution and do the bedding of his overlords in stopping the CITIZENSHIP question to keep an open and chaotic southern border. (Obama could remove the question via EO....but TRUMP can't put it back....really?) There are "many" RHINOS that are just as corrupt as there are democrats. ;)

Reality: The left just finished an extensive 3 year "INVESTIGATION" of Trump.....with the best corrupt minds the left has to offer. THEY GOT SQUAT. Why? Trump is squeaky clean. If anything at all existed in Trump's closet.....he would be impeached by now. There is NOTHING for the left to find...…….


THAT IS WHY TRUMP was hand picked...by the patriot powers that be.
 
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Ralph said:
You big dummy, Trump is nothing but a puppet.....TRUMP was hand picked for the job as a CLEAN non-politician by the Patriots with power in this nation in order to clean house and jail as many of the One World Order criminals and enablers as possible. Just who do you think has access to the many voting machines around the nation? Patriots within the covert agencies of this nation. Why did Trump squeak by in many LIBERAL STATES and win the Electoral College? :laugh: You still have not figured it out?

Example. The Patriots helped Trump bait the left into doing something stupid. They knew the left could not resist the bait.....by pretending that Trump has something to hide within his IRS records. Trump deliberately stone walled the Media and baited the leftist politicians by refusing to release his IRS records. They fell for the bait......in the largest and most corrupt state government in the US......New York, the politicians have been baited into changing the laws regarding the IRS records....making an amendment that allows "only" politicians to be mandated to release their records in a classic left wing GOT'YA Trump MOVE.

https:www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/02/how-new-york-release-donald-trump-tax-returns-215094


What these idiots failed to comprehend.....TRUMP was picked and placed into power for a reason....he's squeaky clean. They will find nothing of value in the IRS records. What they have accomplished is making a path for the DOJ to audit the "MANY" left wing politicians that come from, lived and filed a tax return while being a resident of this state. Politicians such as the former US SENATOR.....CLINTON whose foundation has stoned walled the FEDS for years. More? Chuckie Schumer......Gillibrand.....Nadler...….more? You do the math. :bigthink:


This BIG DUMMY......has a plan....not of his own, he is only a patriot, one of the few that could actually get the job done. One of the first "sealed indictments" of the over 50K that exists today to be unsealed and executed?

E P S T E I N


The first of many to come. Steele was not questioned for over 15 hours by the Federal Prosecutors for NO REASON.....under oath, under the rules of perjury.

Just why do you assume that BARR and DURHAM suddenly appeared from semi-retirement? Both have navigated these corrupt waters before......while BARR is one the greatest legal minds in the United States. Simply look at the fake CENSUS question. He knows that he can use the 14th amendment to get the question back on the Census that was only removed via EO under BHO in 2010. Until Obama removed the question it was traditional as late as the 2000 Census. The only time the question of citizenship did not exist (in one form or another) was UNDER OBAMA. What TRUMP accomplished was "weeding" out and exposing John Roberts as a corrupt SCOTUS member. He enabled the unconstitutional Affordable Care Act to go into law.....now he is attempting to ignore the Constitution and do the bedding of his overlords in stopping the CITIZENSHIP question to keep an open and chaotic southern border. (Obama could remove the question via EO....but TRUMP can't put it back....really?) There are "many" RHINOS that are just as corrupt as there are democrats. ;)

Reality: The left just finished an extensive 3 year "INVESTIGATION" of Trump.....with the best corrupt minds the left has to offer. THEY GOT SQUAT. Why? Trump is squeaky clean. If anything at all existed in Trump's closet.....he would be impeached by now. There is NOTHING for the left to find...…….


THAT IS WHY TRUMP was hand picked...by the patriot powers that be.
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Unfortunately, I had to stop reading somewhere around the third paragraph.

I do not have the time or the inclination to indulge the mentally unstable or the clinically delusional.

The conservative tradition is a legitimate topic of scholarly inquiry that does not need to be polluted with the delusions of Trump boot-lickers.
 
StoneByStone said:
I think Conservativism has never really been a coherent political philosophy. As the name implies, Conservatives want to "conserve" society exactly the way it is. It doesn't make sense that Conservatives are both against abortion and against programs that help children. But to them, it's not about consistency, it's just about preventing change.
The part about petty grievances against Liberals does seem new, but I'm sure it's always been a part of Conservatism too. It's just that now, with the internet making Social Justice so visible, it's become a much bigger part of the Right.
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LOL... tell us about the consistency of the liberals who are pro-abortion and for programs to help kids. (we'll assume for sake of argument that your above comment isn't full of shit)
 
Cypress said:
Unfortunately, I had to stop reading somewhere around the third paragraph.

I do not have the time or the inclination to indulge the mentally unstable or the clinically delusional.

The conservative tradition is a legitimate topic of scholarly inquiry that does not need to be polluted with the delusions of Trump boot-lickers.
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The coward once again displays his inability to address anything but an echo.
 
Cypress said:
Unfortunately, I had to stop reading somewhere around the third paragraph.

I do not have the time or the inclination to indulge the mentally unstable or the clinically delusional.

The conservative tradition is a legitimate topic of scholarly inquiry that does not need to be polluted with the delusions of Trump boot-lickers.
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More than expected from an ignorant leftist that can't articulate without PASTING the thoughts of others. SOCK.

Of course....;) The Clay person don't have time for the truth. :laugh: Its all a "delusion", Trump did not kick Hillary's ass, he is not president, there are no sealed indictments, AG BARR did not appoint Durham to prosecute the corrupt deep state players.....Steele was never grilled for over 15 hours by federal prosecutors under oath.....TRUMP is not kicking ass and taking names as his popularity soars far above the numbers that he had when elected. The left wing pedophiles like CLINTON and the elite players are not under investigation....its a DELUSION. Epstein is not "squealing" like a pig....in pointing out that Blow Job logged 26 flights to Epstein's Pedophile Island.

LEFT WING PROJECTION: See above. :cool:
 
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Superfreak said:
LOL... tell us about the consistency of the liberals who are pro-abortion and for programs to help kids. (we'll assume for sake of argument that your above comment isn't full of shit)
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The difference is that pro-choice Liberals don't believe life begins at conception. You might disagree with when life begins, but the point is that for a person who doesn't believe abortion is murder, there is no contradiction between abortion and wanting to help children.
So-called "pro-life" Conservatives aren't really pro-life if they want to cut programs that help kids and the poor parents who raise them.

Look at how many Conservatives hated Trump, but when he became the nominee in 2016, they call fell in line. Meanwhile, Liberals purity-spiral with their candidates. If a Democrat isn't absolutely perfect, lots of Liberals just won't vote.
This is another example of how the Right doesn't care about policy, they care about the GOP.
 
Cypress said:
Unfortunately, I had to stop reading somewhere around the third paragraph.

I do not have the time or the inclination to indulge the mentally unstable or the clinically delusional.

The conservative tradition is a legitimate topic of scholarly inquiry that does not need to be polluted with the delusions of Trump boot-lickers.
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I think you are maybe exaggerating a bit, but on the money on the rest.:) lol

He usually has a point but unfortunately it's well buried in the midst of wordy discursive rambling.......

I would read more of his opinions if he would say in one or two lines what he says in 3-4 paragraphs.......
 
Cypress said:
Edmund Burke emphasized the importance of accepting the accumulated wisdom of the past rather than attempting to start the world over.

1. Change was necessary, but it should be gradual, alwaysmindful of the circumstances preceding it.
2. We should cultivate particular and local loyalties rather than adhering to grand abstractions.
3. We should be proud, rather than ashamed, of our comparative unimaginativeness, because it safeguards us from utopian folly.
4. We are guided by our prejudices, luckily—which means we don’t have to think out each new situation from first principles.
5. Burke argued that the principle of democracy was a dangerous abstraction, and he supported government moves to suppress its advocates.
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I generally find there is some merit in the stated philosophies of conservative traditionalist Edmund Burke. It is true that incremental change is often more effective than attempts at radical, instantaneous sweeping change. It is wise to consider that our experiences from the past should inform our decisions as much, or moreso than grand utopian abstractions.

He was also prescient about the French Revolution and the violence and mayhem that is risked by unrestrained radicalism and populism.

He was wrong about the evils inherent in democratic institutions and his defense of the merits of aristocracy. I did not know this, but Thomas Paine's Rights of Man was written in reaction to Edumund Burke's "Reflections", and Paine made it a full-throated defense of democracy, liberalism, natural rights, and the virtue of a meritocracy in lieu of hereditary privilege and tradition.
 
Cypress said:
I generally find there is some merit in the stated philosophies of conservative traditionalist Edmund Burke. It is true that incremental change is often more effective than attempts at radical, instantaneous sweeping change. It is wise to consider that our experiences from the past should inform our decisions as much, or moreso than grand utopian abstractions.

He was also prescient about the French Revolution and the violence and mayhem that is risked by unrestrained radicalism and populism.

He was wrong about the evils inherent in democratic institutions and his defense of the merits of aristocracy. I did not know this, but Thomas Paine's Rights of Man was written in reaction to Edumund Burke's "Reflections", and Paine made it a full-throated defense of democracy, liberalism, natural rights, and the virtue of a meritocracy in lieu of hereditary privilege and tradition.
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been a while since I read it, but I do recall him mentioning~responding to Burke's opinions/points several times...

He must of done a good job, none of the other "forefathers" showed up @ his funeral from what I recall....
 
Bill said:
been a while since I read it, but I do recall him mentioning~responding to Burke's opinions/points several times...

He must of done a good job, none of the other "forefathers" showed up @ his funeral from what I recall....
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I am learning a lot about Edmund Burke that I did not know.

It is a hazardous business trying to apply modern perceptions to dead guys from over two centuries ago, but I think a plausible case is made that Burke was one of the intellectual fathers of conservatism, while Thomas Paine provided a prominent voice in defense of liberalism.
 
Cypress said:
I am learning a lot about Edmund Burke that I did not know.

It is a hazardous business trying to apply modern perceptions to dead guys from over two centuries ago, but I think a plausible case is made that Burke was one of the intellectual fathers of conservatism, while Thomas Paine provided a prominent voice in defense of liberalism.
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Yes.....

Paine was way ahead of his time:

"At fifty, though the mental faculties of men are in full vigor, and his judgment better than at any preceding date, the bodily powers are on the decline. He cannot bear the same quantity of fatigue as at an earlier period. He begins to earn less, and is less capable of enduring the wind and weather; and in those retired employments where much sight is required, he fails space, and feels himself like an old horse, beginning to be turned adrift. At sixty, his labor ought to be over, at least from direct necessity. It is painful to see old age working itself to death, in which are called civilized countries, for its daily bread."
Rights of Man, 1
 
MASON said:
Big difference,Hillary is a private citizen off topic to this thread.
Trump is President.
Playing the Hillary card is two years,played out!
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And I still contend that if one wants to know why Trump is president they have to understand it is largely because Hillary was the nominee for the Democrats. So if the discussion is why do conservatives support Trump (which is questionable for true conservatives) then pointing out Hillary’s ‘qualifications’ valid.
 
leaningright said:
And I still contend that if one wants to know why Trump is president they have to understand it is largely because Hillary was the nominee for the Democrats. So if the discussion is why do conservatives support Trump (which is questionable for true conservatives) then pointing out Hillary’s ‘qualifications’ valid.
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I certainly thought the DNC decided on Hillary,and pushed her onto the voters!
 
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