The depth of what Reid said.

[Bonestorm]

this whole convo is rediculous and Harry is an idiot who clearly doesn't deal with educated or professional blacks very often.

I think it is more that he doesn't deal with educated or professional blacks in a non-professional setting very often.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

First of all, I'm not insisting that people must speak Black English in Colorado. I am insisting that it shouldn't be altogether surprising that a successful white guy doesn't have occasion to interact with folks speaking Black English and that your personal experience may not be representative of the entirety of the black population in Colorado. Pretty uncontroversial stuff, really.

Second, I'm not suggesting that it is an "amazing feat" for a black person to speak Standard American English. Nor was Harry Reid. In fact, it is quite common for black people to engage in "code switching" based on social context. In fact, for this very reason it is unlikely that a successful black person that speaks Black English would use it when talking with white people.

Reid's problem is in the language he used, not in the idea he was conveying. First, if he said "Black English" instead of "Negro dialect" I doubt very seriously that his comment would have raised as much of a fuss. His use of the term "Negro" is the problem, not necessarily the idea that he is presenting (at least among most folks).

I think it is insidious for Reid to imply that America is so racist it would never have elected Obama if he spoke or looked a certain way. I am a devout conservative, and frankly, I can tell you from my perspective, I don't care if someone talks like Elmer Fudd and looks like Bella Abzug, as long as they articulate core conservative values and principles. I think a vast majority of America feels that way as well, and only a scant minority would hold Reid's racist viewpoint.

To me, it wasn't as much about usage of the word "negro" that bothered me about Reid's comments, it was the implication and insinuation, that average people routinely exhibit racist prejudice based on skin tone and dialect. Perhaps this is true in Nevada, maybe it's true among Democrats, but it is certainly NOT reflective of the views found in mainstream America.

 

[Jarod]

this whole convo is rediculous and Harry is an idiot who clearly doesn't deal with educated or professional blacks very often.

Why do you say that, Reid clearly stated that Black people can and do speak in a "black dialect" and can and do speak in a non "black dialect".

 

[Jarod]

I think it is insidious for Reid to imply that America is so racist it would never have elected Obama if he spoke or looked a certain way. I am a devout conservative, and frankly, I can tell you from my perspective, I don't care if someone talks like Elmer Fudd and looks like Bella Abzug, as long as they articulate core conservative values and principles. I think a vast majority of America feels that way as well, and only a scant minority would hold Reid's racist viewpoint.

To me, it wasn't as much about usage of the word "negro" that bothered me about Reid's comments, it was the implication and insinuation, that average people routinely exhibit racist prejudice based on skin tone and dialect. Perhaps this is true in Nevada, maybe it's true among Democrats, but it is certainly NOT reflective of the views found in mainstream America.

I do not belive that many Americans would acknoledge it or even admit it to themselves.... but I do belive it is a feeling many Americans have that would prevent them from supporting a canidate with a thick black dialect, or a thick Chinease dialect or a thick New England Dialect.

It is a prejudice, but not necessarly a race based one, just a predjudice aganst those not like us.

Why did Jimmy Carter win Alabama when no other Republicans have since....?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Sometimes this is true. Race relations are very different in CO than the south. However, if the dude had darker skin and could still throw down a speech like that I think he'd be able to win in every state he won... Maybe somebody could enlighten me.

I don't doubt that relations are different in the south... but Obama didn't even win in the south. My question to those Reid apologists is WHAT state that Obama won do they think a darker skinned black man could not have won?

I can't seem to get an answer from them on that...

 

[Damocles]

While I disagree, FINALLY someone was able to make a valid argument that what he said was racist... You win the prize as the only conservative in the discussion able to do that, the others were just following the leader.

I disagree...

1) I suspect Reid was using the term Dialect interchangable with the term vernacular incorrectly.

2) Many very intelegent black people grow up in a family that speaks based on different grammer rules than others, its been called ebonics, if you grew up using that dialect, you have a hard time learning to speak differently. President Obama was raised by a white family that used the "standard" grammer rules and thus speeks using those rules. He has learned to speak differently when speaking to different groups. Its a very well used trick that polititians of all races have picked up on, thats what Reid was talking about. To point that out is not racist.

And I think that a man just trying to make an old man happy on his birthday shouldn't have to watch everything he says just in case...

But the reality is people, once they get into these positions, are either careful or they wind up having to turn it over sooner than they wanted for being foolish with their language.

Seriously. Had he called it "black english" rather than "negro dialect"... Who says "negro" anymore other than the census and Senators? Why is that word even in the man's regular vocabulary. It shows me that he is a bit too foolish to hold the position. If it was something that Lott should leave it for, then this too is something that Reid should be forced to leave it for...

 

[Jarod]

And I think that a man just trying to make an old man happy on his birthday shouldn't have to watch everything he says just in case...

But the reality is people, once they get into these positions, are either careful or they wind up having to turn it over sooner than they wanted for being foolish with their language.

Seriously. Had he called it "black english" rather than "negro dialect"... Who says "negro" anymore other than the census and Senators? Why is that word even in the man's regular vocabulary. It shows me that he is a bit too foolish to hold the position. If it was something that Lott should leave it for, then this too is something that Reid should be forced to leave it for...

So are you conceding that what he said was not racist?

I did not belive Lott should have left for his comments.

I did not belive that Biden should have been forced out for basically the same comments about Obama. (apperently Obama did not belive so)

GWB used Lotts comments as a convient excuse to push him out over some disagreements the two had.


I might could agree with you that he has shown himself to be foolish and therefore should resign, but not for being racist.

 

[Damocles]

So are you conceding that what he said was not racist?

I did not belive Lott should have left for his comments.

I did not belive that Biden should have been forced out for basically the same comments about Obama. (apperently Obama did not belive so)

GWB used Lotts comments as a convient excuse to push him out over some disagreements the two had.


I might could agree with you that he has shown himself to be foolish and therefore should resign, but not for being racist.

I never said it was "racist", that is again your own straw man.

I said it was insensitive. And the "he's so old that he doesn't know better" excuse is garbage. The man shouldn't be in such a position if he isn't wise enough to learn to remove certain comments from his vocabulary, my mother is capable of it and she's older than this old moron. This is a rare view into the measure of wisdom the man wields, and his actions show it to be lacking.

 

[Jarod]

I don't doubt that relations are different in the south... but Obama didn't even win in the south. My question to those Reid apologists is WHAT state that Obama won do they think a darker skinned black man could not have won?

I can't seem to get an answer from them on that...

I belive Obama won Georgia, North Carolina, Lousianna and while not the south, Florida. Ill check.

 

[Jarod]

I belive Obama won Georgia, North Carolina, Lousianna and while not the south, Florida. Ill check.

I was wrong on Georgia and Lousiana, but President Obama did win Virginia.


That is to be expected, the South is more conservative and more (at least openly) racist.

 

[Cancel 2018. 3]

Not to disagree, but the black people that you fellers run into may not necessarily be a representative sample of black folks.

The fact of the matter is that Black Vernacular English (aka "Black English," "Black English Vernacular," "African American Vernacular English" etc. . .) is a real thing and is a distinct variety of American English. Some black people do not speak Standard American English. Some do.

I'm not terribly surprised that two successful white men do not know any black people that speak Black Vernacular English.

not really...its not that different from the way southerners talk...

i can't believe you don't know more black people that don't have an accent....you seem to like to stereotype them

 

[Jarod]

I never said it was "racist", that is again your own straw man.

I said it was insensitive. And the "he's so old that he doesn't know better" excuse is garbage. The man shouldn't be in such a position if he isn't wise enough to learn to remove certain comments from his vocabulary, my mother is capable of it and she's older than this old moron. This is a rare view into the measure of wisdom the man wields, and his actions show it to be lacking.

IM okay with that.

 

[Canceled1]

not really...its not that different from the way southerners talk...

i can't believe you don't know more black people that don't have an accent....you seem to like to stereotype them

I know tons of black people that speak articulately and do not use the Ghetto vernacular. I will however say that almost every single one of them pronounce "ask" as "aks" and it grates on me.

 

[Cypress]

I would also argue anyone from Boston who does not have the letter R in their vocabulary could not be elected nationally. Or someone from Brooklyn who you can't understand a freaking word they say at 100 mph. That also goes someone from Kentucky whose drawl is so thick you can understand them either.

That may be true, although JFK certainly had a prominent New England Accent, and I can point you to about 20 white dudes in the Senate who speak in pronounced southern drawls. Take a listen to tapes of Lyndon Johnson, or check out Robert Byrd or Mitch McChinless McConnell if you want a dose of southern white trash-speak. I seriously doubt any black dude or black gal would be elected to the senate, let alone the white house if they talked like Sheila Jackson Lee.

So, it's not even in the same league. White people react in a much more visceral way to black people who have prominent black english vernacular and a perceived "ethnic" dialect, or body language. I don't think there's any doubt that's a major reason why white people were so frightened by the Reverend Jeremiah White, in a way that they are never frightened by the appalling sermons and statements that routinely came from Jerry Falwell, Pat Roberson, or other rightwing preachers.

 

[cawacko]

That may be true, although JFK certainly had a prominent New England Accent, and I can point you to about 20 white dudes in the Senate who speak in pronounced southern drawls. Take a listen to tapes of Lyndon Johnson, or check out Robert Byrd or Mitch McChinless McConnell if you want a dose of southern white trash-speak. I seriously doubt any black dude or black gal would be elected to the senate, let alone the white house if they talked like Sheila Jackson Lee.

So, it's not even in the same league. White people react in a much more visceral way to black people who have prominent black english vernacular and a perceived "ethnic" dialect, or body language. I don't think there's any doubt that's a major reason why white people were so frightened by the Reverend Jeremiah White, in a way that they are never frightened by the appalling sermons and statements that routinely came from Jerry Falwell, Pat Roberson, or other rightwing preachers.

You are right about JFK. I was thinking more a national election. Within a state one can get away with having the local accent.

 

[Cypress]

You are right about JFK. I was thinking more a national election. Within a state one can get away with having the local accent.

Okay, no one who talks like a Crip from east LA is going to get elected.

And nobody who speaks like Forrest Gump is going to get elected.


I know what you're saying. But that's not what I'm saying. Just having any kind of prominent black-english vernacular accent, like Sheila Jackson Lee has, is a disadvantage in a way that the myriad of supposedly "white" regional accents aren't to white dudes.

 

[Annie]

LBJ had an accent, he also used vulgarities enough to demonstrate he certainly wasn't an elite member.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Riding high and pulling a cart load of vote suppression history aimed mostly at black voters.

Oh yeah, I'm still waiting for the neocons to justify THOUSANDS of Floridians getting screwed out of their votes in 2000 in Florida and then justifying the Shrub winning by less than a thousand votes.

But that's another story...what's your take on Reid and what I said in the opening post?

 

[Taichiliberal]

Good post. I agree Reid should go (and take Nancy with him). We need two people with more spine in these positions.

Agreed....IMHO, a LOT of Dems need to spine up or get out.

 

[Taichiliberal]

I find this whole thing so odd. Maybe its because i live in new England. EDUCATED blacks talk the same as EDUCATED whites here.

It's not so much education as with ethnic/racial identity. Whatever are the various ethnic diversities among whites in New England, I'm sure you've noticed that certain catch phrases, inflections, etc. are used to "recognize" the cultural roots. That exists REGARDLESS of "education".

Catch what Reid is saying.....he's saying that white folk feel more comfortable with Obama because of his skin town, and his speech pattern, and that was a determining factor in his garnering votes. IMHO, that's more of a racial slap in the face to white folk than black, because it's telling them that they're not smart enough to judge a man on his intellect and character.