The evolution of complex life

Cypress said:
We can explain how the Big Bang happened. We can't mechanistically explain why it happened.
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you can explain how it is the result of natural law..........you cannot deal with the fact that then, it was the moment that the natural laws came into existence........because otherwise they would have had the same causal effect earlier........
 
PostmodernProphet said:
you can explain how it is the result of natural law..........you cannot deal with the fact that then, it was the moment that the natural laws came into existence........because otherwise they would have had the same causal effect earlier........
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When the physical laws came into existence is an open question because we don't know if this universe is unique, and there is nothing about the strong nuclear field, the gravitational field, or Plank's constant that proves the existence of an Abrahamic God as described in the bible
 
PostmodernProphet said:
in reality, it is an equal........
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So here's the problem with fundamentalist holy rollers and hardcore atheists...

Holy rollers want to latch onto any uncertainty as ammunition for proof of a Christian God.

Hardcore atheists are keen to deny there are huge gaps in our knowledge out of fear it will give the holy rollers ammunition.

That's polemics, not science.

Responsible scientists aren't interested in playing ammunition games. As far as the responsible scientist is concerned, uncertainties and knowledge gaps are irresistible because nothing is more fun than trying to solve a mystery.
 
Cypress said:
When the physical laws came into existence is an open question because we don't know if this universe is unique, and there is nothing about the strong nuclear field, the gravitational field, or Plank's constant that proves the existence of an Abrahamic God as described in the bible
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My understanding is that our Universe's laws formed shortly after the Big Bang.

https://sites.uni.edu/morgans/astro/course/Notes/section3/bigbang.html

Anything outside or prior to these events is unknown. I doubt desert nomads from 4000 years ago had any special insights.
 
Cypress said:
When the physical laws came into existence is an open question because we don't know if this universe is unique, and there is nothing about the strong nuclear field, the gravitational field, or Plank's constant that proves the existence of an Abrahamic God as described in the bible
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1) I haven't presented or expect anyone to present evidence of the existence of God......continuing your lie about that is WHY I still think you're an idiot.......
2) it should be obvious that if you believe this universe came into existence BECAUSE of the impact of the natural laws that the moment of origin HAD TO BE the moment the natural laws "arrived" to cause it.......if they are the difference between not-universe and universe the origin of the cause has to be the trigger........if they were eternal, they cannot have been the cause of origin, as they have no will...no power to control the "not yet" and the "now".....
 
Doc Dutch said:
My understanding is that our Universe's laws formed shortly after the Big Bang.

https://sites.uni.edu/morgans/astro/course/Notes/section3/bigbang.html

Anything outside or prior to these events is unknown. I doubt desert nomads from 4000 years ago had any special insights.
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It's an open question because we don't know if ours is the only universe, and if similar physical laws exist outside our universe, assuming the eternal inflation or multiverse ideas are possible.

On the other hand, if our observable universe is the only one out there, it is an interesting philosophical question to ask where the physical laws and constants come from.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
1) I haven't presented or expect anyone to present evidence of the existence of God......continuing your lie about that is WHY I still think you're an idiot.......
2) it should be obvious that if you believe this universe came into existence BECAUSE of the impact of the natural laws that the moment of origin HAD TO BE the moment the natural laws "arrived" to cause it.......if they are the difference between not-universe and universe the origin of the cause has to be the trigger........if they were eternal, they cannot have been the cause of origin, as they have no will...no power to control the "not yet" and the "now".....
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We haven't ruled out the possibility of eternal inflation or a multiverse, in which the physical laws may (or may not) have existed prior to 13.7 billion years ago.

Those physical laws may be eternal.

Or maybe not.

Its an open question.
 
Cypress said:
It's an open question because we don't know if ours is the only universe, and if similar physical laws exist outside our universe, assuming the eternal inflation or multiverse ideas are possible.

On the other hand, if our observable universe is the only one out there, it is an interesting philosophical question to ask where the physical laws and constants come from.
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If we open the door to multiverses, then we open it to an infinite number of multiverses where every possibility is played out. Some universes would have laws that allowed life, others where it does not. A universe where gravity doesn't exist would never form. It would just be radiation and blackness.
 
Doc Dutch said:
If we open the door to multiverses, then we open it to an infinite number of multiverses where every possibility is played out. Some universes would have laws that allowed life, others where it does not. A universe where gravity doesn't exist would never form. It would just be radiation and blackness.
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That's what I am thinking.

We can assume physical laws only came into existence 13.7 billion years ago.

And that may be true.

But our ability to observe all reality is limited by the speed of light and the expansion of spacetime. We simply don't know what, if anything, exists outside our bubble of observational reality.

But lacking any other data, it's a good conservative assumption that all spacetime and physical laws popped Into existence 13.7 billion years ago. But an assumption nonetheless.
 
Cypress said:
That's what I am thinking.

We can assume physical laws only came into existence 13.7 billion years ago.

And that may be true.

But our ability to observe all reality is limited by the speed of light and the expansion of spacetime. We simply don't know what, if anything, exists outside our bubble of observational reality.

But lacking any other data, it's a good conservative assumption that all spacetime and physical laws popped Into existence 13.7 billion years ago. But an assumption nonetheless.
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Agreed.

My understanding is that space is curved and there is no edge. That even if we could travel to the farthest point from Earth that we'd never reach it. https://lweb.cfa.harvard.edu/seuforum/faq.htm

TBH, I try not to think too hard about some of the stuff in the link because it makes my head hurt. LOL
 
Perry Phimosis said:
Again, I have to ask "why are they insurmountable"? Because all the chemistry that runs your life is just plain old chemistry. NOTHING mysterious, nothing insurmountable.
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they've been talking about it for 80 years and they don't even know where the staircase is yet.....and because chemistry is chemistry and biology is biology......so far they haven't begun to bridge the gap between organic chemicals and living reproducing creatures......
 
Cypress said:
So here's the problem with fundamentalist holy rollers and hardcore atheists...
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no....the problem is you refuse to recognize that both intelligent design and abiogenesis are faith choices......I'm not the one pretending one of the above is science.......
 
Cypress said:
We haven't ruled out the possibility of eternal inflation or a multiverse, in which the physical laws may (or may not) have existed prior to 13.7 billion years ago.

Those physical laws may be eternal.

Or maybe not.

Its an open question.
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if these unthinking natural laws will spontaneously trigger the formation of a new universe under certain circumstances, then obviously it is the "certain circumstances" which are the cause, not the natural laws......that should be obvious.....it is the catalyst which is the key......
 
PostmodernProphet said:
they've been talking about it for 80 years and they don't even know where the staircase is yet.....and because chemistry is chemistry and biology is biology......so far they haven't begun to bridge the gap between organic chemicals and living reproducing creatures......
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We actually know quite a bit about the staircase. We don't know which staircase exactly but we have a pretty solid idea.

Why? Because we understand the chemistry really well.

Let's take the question of chirality (again): we know that most biologically active chemicals that have stereoisomers prefer ONE enantiomer over the other. Why is that? It's a genuine mystery. But it makes very good sense when you realize that many of these compounds preferentially adsorb onto phyllosilicates (clay minerals) naturally biasing the selection of one enantiomer over another. That's a HUGE indicator for how life may have started. It indicates a role of the "non-living" inorganic world and what ultimately becomes biochemicals.

I think the difficulty is NOT one of "where to even start" but rather finding the exact conditions that spontaneously create life. That's a bit tougher, but certainly not in the realm of the impossible to even imagine.

In other words: we know quite a bit about the staircase, we know quite a bit about every single stair. We just may not have found that EXACT staircase yet. But we haven't really been looking that long or with that huge of an effort.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
if these unthinking natural laws will spontaneously trigger the formation of a new universe under certain circumstances, then obviously it is the "certain circumstances" which are the cause, not the natural laws......that should be obvious.....it is the catalyst which is the key......
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Not all things which spontaneously occur require a catalyst.
 
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