The Jewish vote

[Cypress]

Would you give the UN the right to let foreigners take over your country? This is pretty basic stuff here.

I am a realist.

Rolling the clock back to 1947 is not a realistic solution.

A viable two state solution, with a sovereign Israel and a sovereign Palestine is the only plausible way forward.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Polling suggests American Jews are more critical of the sincerity of the Israeli government's peace efforts than are your garden variety Deplorable.

Certainly Israelis are more accepting overall of an authoritarian far-right leader like Netanyahu than American Jews would be of the same over here, as evidenced by their voting patterns. Kind of ironic, given that the state of Israel was created because of a certain authoritarian far-right German leader and his actions against Jews.

 

[Micawber]

I straddle the fence on this like an Adonis.

Israel is taking more land, making more settlements and has a people in an open air prison state, on the one hand, and
alone in a sea of dangerous Jew hater Muslim states, Palestinians are lobbing indiscriminate rockets into Israel and selecting a designated terrorist org as official government.

I don't like what either side does in this civil war. Not picking sides.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

That is why I specifically wrote a viable two state solution.

Agreed.

OTOH, this shit has been going of ever since 5 Arab nations attacked Israel the day after they declared themselves a nation in 1948.

If the Arabs AKA Muslims really wanted peace, they'd have helped the Palestinians build infrastructure instead of giving them weapons.

Anyone with an average IQ or higher can figure out that rockets and suicide vests aren't made by Hamas or from local materials. The weapons are imported.

So far, the best way to achieve peace in the Middle East has been persuading Arab nations to recognize Israel and stop destabilizing the region with weaponry.

That said, after over 70 years of constant attack, I can see why Israel has overreacted with RWers like Netanyahu even though I don't condone it.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I straddle the fence on this like an Adonis.

Israel is taking more land, making more settlements and has a people in an open air prison state, on the one hand, and
alone in a sea of dangerous Jew hater Muslim states, Palestinians are lobbing indiscriminate rockets into Israel and selecting a designated terrorist org as official government.

I don't like what either side does in this civil war. Not picking sides.

Yes, but note that land was used to launch attacks. Mexico is lucky the US didn't take Chihuahua and a few other sectors of Mexico after it let Pancho Villa kill Americans on our side of the border.

While the US supports the Kurds, can anyone really fault the Turks or Iraqis if Kurds attack inside their respective territories? Russia for Chechen terrorist attacks inside Russia? The US attack on Afghanistan after 9/11?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancho_Villa_Expedition
The Pancho Villa Expedition—now known officially in the United States as the Mexican Expedition,[6] but originally referred to as the "Punitive Expedition, U.S. Army"[1]—was a military operation conducted by the United States Army against the paramilitary forces of Mexican revolutionary Francisco "Pancho" Villa from March 14, 1916, to February 7, 1917, during the Mexican Revolution of 1910–1920.

The expedition was launched in retaliation for Villa's attack on the town of Columbus, New Mexico, and was the most remembered event of the Mexican Border War. The declared objective of the expedition by the Wilson administration was the capture of Villa.[7] Despite locating and defeating the main body of Villa's command who were responsible for the Columbus raid, U.S. forces were unable to achieve Wilson's stated main objective of preventing Villa's escape.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I am a realist.

Rolling the clock back to 1947 is not a realistic solution.

A viable two state solution, with a sovereign Israel and a sovereign Palestine is the only plausible way forward.

Agreed; specifically Gaza and the West Bank, although that splits the Palestinians like the partition of India into India, Pakistan and East Pakistan (Bangladesh). Map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...svg/1200px-Partition_of_India_1947_en.svg.png

It's often recognized that the most dangerous man in the world is one with nothing to lose.

At the moment, the Palestinians in Gaza don't have much to lose and the West Bankers are not much better off. Best, IMO, is to give them something to lose: a future. Build infrastructure, schools and factories as a path to peace.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed; specifically Gaza and the West Bank, although that splits the Palestinians like the partition of India into India, Pakistan and East Pakistan (Bangladesh). Map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...svg/1200px-Partition_of_India_1947_en.svg.png

It's often recognized that the most dangerous man in the world is one with nothing to lose.

At the moment, the Palestinians in Gaza don't have much to lose and the West Bankers are not much better off. Best, IMO, is to give them something to lose: a future. Build infrastructure, schools and factories as a path to peace.

The Palestinians are really living under apartheid-like conditions, and that for sure creates an explosive situation for extremists on all sides to exploit.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The Palestinians are really living under apartheid-like conditions, and that for sure creates an explosive situation for extremists on all sides to exploit.

My wife and I were in the West Bank November 2018 visiting Bethlehem. I saw no soldiers except at checkpoints. Our bus wasn't checked coming or going.

Not sure "apartheid" is equal to military occupation. Are the Afghans living under apartheid conditions? People going through airport security? Which, BTW, was a Royal PITA trying to get out of Israel.

Yes, I astutely avoided Gaza. Too many nutjobs down there.

<---best meal I had the entire week.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Certainly Israelis are more accepting overall of an authoritarian far-right leader like Netanyahu than American Jews would be of the same over here, as evidenced by their voting patterns. Kind of ironic, given that the state of Israel was created because of a certain authoritarian far-right German leader and his actions against Jews.

That happens when their people are under constant attack. Look at the Patriot Act after 9/11 for an example of giving up freedom to create temporary safety.

The US only suffered two major Islamic attacks, both in NYC. The Israelis have been pounded for seven decades.

 

[moon]

I straddle the fence on this like an Adonis.

You can't. Fence-squatting is complicity with the aggressor.
You wouldn't stand back and watch an armed robbery, followed by imprisonment and torture of the victims no matter how hard the victims resisted.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

That happens when their people are under constant attack. Look at the Patriot Act after 9/11 for an example of giving up freedom to create temporary safety.

The US only suffered two major Islamic attacks, both in NYC. The Israelis have been pounded for seven decades.

Hmm.

Where you live is the ancestral homeland of indigenous Americans who were there first, and who were pushed out. Imagine how you guys would feel if the UN decided that your area should be returned to the Apaches. You could still live there, but because you all are extremely angry and start shooting and bombing and acting up about it, the Apache Nation builds a wall around a small part of Texas and says you all have to stay there, or move to some other state. They let some of you stay on their new land because they need your labor, but you must have certain papers and you are required to check in when you come and go, and can be searched and/or expelled at any time.

That would go over like a lead balloon, eh?

 

[moon]

Certainly Israelis are more accepting overall of an authoritarian far-right leader like Netanyahu than American Jews would be of the same over here, as evidenced by their voting patterns. Kind of ironic, given that the state of Israel was created because of a certain authoritarian far-right German leader and his actions against Jews.

That's not entirely true- although the Shoah certainly created the conditions for the invasion of Palestine by European Jews.

Theodor Herzl, an Austro-Hungarian Jew referred to as ' the father of Zionism ' connived with spurious Ottomans in the 1890s to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine- at the expense of the indigenous Palestinians. Later connivance with the British aristocracy and their banker friends led to a ' promise ' in the form of the Balfour Declaration that Zionists should take Palestine as a homeland- and not Kenya as previously offered ( Yes, the arrogant British thought it was perfectly reasonable to give away other people's countries )
As you say, Hitler became the catalyst to put this ridiculously unjust plan into action.

 

[moon]

kaffer-kicker;

OTOH, this shit has been going of ever since 5 Arab nations attacked Israel the day after they declared themselves a nation in 1948.

You're well off-beam. Long before the Arab League attempted to intervene the European Zionists and their terrorist gangs, Igun, Lehi, Haganah etc. razed close to 400 Palestinian villages , expelled hundreds of thousands of indigenous Arabs, murdered British soldiers and laid claim to huge swathes of territory not granted to the Jews by UN Resolution 181. Unfortunately they had left it too late and the invaders won....and so the groundwork for modern apartheid Izrael was laid. Shortly after their unilateral declaration of sovereignty over somebody else's country the Zionists murdered the UN peace envoy, Count Bernadotte, who himself had been responsible for the rescue of thousands of Jews from Nazi camps.

Your potted history is a prosemitic fantasy, fueled by your own racism.

 

[cawacko]

kaffer-kicker;


You're well off-beam. Long before the Arab League attempted to intervene the European Zionists and their terrorist gangs, Igun, Lehi, Haganah etc. razed close to 400 Palestinian villages , expelled hundreds of thousands of indigenous Arabs, murdered British soldiers and laid claim to huge swathes of territory not granted to the Jews by UN Resolution 181. Unfortunately they had left it too late and the invaders won....and so the groundwork for modern apartheid Izrael was laid. Shortly after their unilateral declaration of sovereignty over somebody else's country the Zionists murdered the UN peace envoy, Count Bernadotte, who himself had been responsible for the rescue of thousands of Jews from Nazi camps.

Your potted history is a prosemitic fantasy, fueled by your own racism.

Maybe this is too simplistic but do you view any American (regardless of their religion or political affiliation) as racist if they support the state of Israel?

 

[dukkha]

Hmm.

Where you live is the ancestral homeland of indigenous Americans who were there first, and who were pushed out. Imagine how you guys would feel if the UN decided that your area should be returned to the Apaches. You could still live there, but because you all are extremely angry and start shooting and bombing and acting up about it, the Apache Nation builds a wall around a small part of Texas and says you all have to stay there, or move to some other state. They let some of you stay on their new land because they need your labor, but you must have certain papers and you are required to check in when you come and go, and can be searched and/or expelled at any time.

That would go over like a lead balloon, eh?

ROFL.. why dont you donate you house and land to indigenous people?
end that guilt

 

[moon]

Maybe this is too simplistic but do you view any American (regardless of their religion or political affiliation) as racist if they support the state of Israel?

Let's be quite clear. Izraeli racism is not ' the state of Israel ' any more than racism is the United States. Israel has a legal right to exist as a sovereign state and 25% of its population are Palestinian Arabs.
Now you must understand that Israel's legal right to exist stems from the self-same document that created Palestine's legal right to exist, United Nations GA Resolution 181. The Arab nations objected to that document - but it passed anyway and so bestowed the right to exist under international law for both Palestine and Israel.

So the question comes back to you- do you regard any American as racist if they support the state of Palestine ?

So where is YOUR confirmation that Palestine is a sovereign state and should be supported ?

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

ROFL.. why dont you donate you house and land to indigenous people?
end that guilt

What guilt? Try to stay on topic for once, eh?

We live in treaty-ceded territory, the ancestral homeland of the Anishinaabeg (Ojibwe) people. That gives them the right to hunt and fish and gather and otherwise utilize the forest lands and lakes, but we still retain our private property. Suppose the UN decided to give this whole U.P. part of Michigan back to them. We would most likely behave just like the Palestinians who had *their* property taken and given to what we see as usurpers, even though technically their ppl were here first.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Hmm.

Where you live is the ancestral homeland of indigenous Americans who were there first, and who were pushed out. Imagine how you guys would feel if the UN decided that your area should be returned to the Apaches. You could still live there, but because you all are extremely angry and start shooting and bombing and acting up about it, the Apache Nation builds a wall around a small part of Texas and says you all have to stay there, or move to some other state. They let some of you stay on their new land because they need your labor, but you must have certain papers and you are required to check in when you come and go, and can be searched and/or expelled at any time.

That would go over like a lead balloon, eh?

There would be war. So what? Let the Israelis nuke them and we can have peace.

The United States is not the world's policeman. The problem is stabilizing a region that is on the top 5 list of "Most likely to experience a nuclear attack". If that happened, it would be very, very bad for business and the American economy. It would collapse. More and more nations are seeing this problem themselves as they become prosperous. The situation, IMO, is to help (cash in) on those places in a fair manner which is equitable to all. When everyone has a piece of the pie, they become happier.

 

[moon]

This is how Izraeli fascists treat the Palestinians when they want to move from one city to another in their own land. This is shameful for humanity and supports segregation, inequality, racism and occupation. There is no reason to treat the Palestinian civilians in such an inhuman way. The Gestapo couldn't have done better.
Photo from Al Qouba checkpoint near Bethlehem.

Anybody who supports Izraeli fascism is sick of mind. There are no ' sides ' to brutality. The Nazis at Nuremberg had no defense, the butchers of My Lai had no defense, the apartheid Dutch of South Africa had no defense, the American military jailers at Abu Ghraib had no defense- and neither do you.

 

[Iolo/Penderyn]

I am a realist.

Rolling the clock back to 1947 is not a realistic solution.

A viable two state solution, with a sovereign Israel and a sovereign Palestine is the only plausible way forward.

With the most powerful country on earth deciding the zionists can do no wrong and keeping anyone else out? Bit like pretending the South African bantustans were the nucleus of a 'black' state, I think. It is like Hitler: what answer can there be but total opposition by all decent people until things reach their crisis?