Who decided it was an act of war? Hacking occurs all the time, I don't think anybody has started a war over it. An "act of war" does not mean we are at war and therefore treason is not relevant. There might be multiple crimes someone could be charged with, but treason is not one of them.
The last I looked coup attempts are treasonous
- Thread starter Nate Higgers
- Start date
Who decided it was an act of war? Hacking occurs all the time, I don't think anybody has started a war over it. An "act of war" does not mean we are at war and therefore treason is not relevant. There might be multiple crimes someone could be charged with, but treason is not one of them.
I don't pretend to have any special understanding except what anybody can bother to read on the subject. Obviously, most have not bothered to do so since they think a person can be charged with treason without being in a state of active war.
I don't wonder if Russia can be charged with treason--a foreign country cannot give aid and comfort to the enemy and waging war against the U. S. applies to someone under U. S. jurisdiction. No foreigners who have waged war against the U. S. have been charged with treason.
The Constitution simply limits the definition of treason. It is defined in federal law:
"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."
Most of the accusation of treason used by posters or others seems to fit the following characterization: "At times, the term traitor has been used as a political epithet, regardless of any verifiable treasonable action. In a civil war or insurrection, the winners may deem the losers to be traitors. Likewise the term traitor is used in heated political discussion – typically as a slur against political dissidents, or against officials in power who are perceived as failing to act in the best interest of their constituents."
So, if you are still claiming there was some treason involved tell us who committed it. It can't be Russia. If computer hacking is an "act of war" that does not mean we are at war with Russia.
Your link does not say cyberattacks are war. The headline reads: "Why cyberattacks could be war crimes." It then goes on to explain the conditions under which they could be war crimes that involve attacks on military targets or energy grids usually involving a loss of life. It has to violate the rules of war to be a war crime. Targeting the DNC computers or even state election systems that caused no loss of life or threatened our national security does not constitute a war crime or act of war.
The main point is that we are not at war due to any of these cyberattacks. You can argue that we should attack Russia for their actions, but claiming that we are at war or treason is somehow involved ignores all legal and rational arguments.
Cyber is realatively new phenomenon. There are lo laws specifically stating that cyerattacks are an act of war. But is a country shuts down our electrical grid, we will take revenge when we are back on line. I think an attack would be the response. It would mean war.
I am not advocating war for the Russian interference in the election. I think they should be treated as evil actors and sanctions should be stronger and immediate.I do not think Daffy should treat Putin as a old friend and boss.
I'm not sure how effective sanctions are historically and may be counter-productive just like trying to isolate certain nations seems to be less productive than becoming friends (N. Korea and Cuba vs. Vietnam, China, and Russia). I also don't consider any country an "enemy" although we have to prevent any actions detrimental to the U. S. or our allies or other nations (like Kuwait).
Into the Night
Verified User
An opinion piece does not define an act of war. A war crime is also not an act of war.
If there is no proof, how do you know they hacked them and changed the election result?
Into the Night
Verified User
Anyone that chooses to actively subvert and destroy the Constitution of the United States, the constitution of any State, or to assassinate, kidnap, or otherwise threaten any officer thereof. If the citizens of a State are under attack, they may draw upon their right to call upon the other States to assist in defending them.
Al Qaida and a few other radical Islamic groups, and a few individuals that go out and try to do this are currently at war with the United States.
No. Neither have they attacked as I have described.
There already are sanctions upon Russia. What rock have you been hiding under? These take the form of various trade sanctions. There is currently a movement to remove or reduce them since they interfere with trade and international corporations. Trump understands where this desire is coming from, since he also conducts business internationally.
We don't. Putin does that.
So do I.
There still isn't with Russia.
What attack?
Into the Night
Verified User
I get Russian hackers and Chinese hackers trying to get into my machine all the time. I have logs of their activity. Am I going to go out and starting shooting up these countries because of it?
BTW, no has gotten in yet! Are you going to shoot up a nation because your own security systems were crap?
Into the Night
Verified User
...in another ballpark...on another planet...
Keep hitting the changing votes. It is missing the point. They hacked sites, Facebook and other communication avenues to push the vote pro Trump and anti-Hillary. They lied and pounded her night and day. They were feeding white power hate and Trump crazies, making them even nuttier. It is hard to put a number on what they accomplished, bet it surely was significant.
They may have changed vote counts. We cannot prove it because our voting machines are in the control of local people who are not permitted to take a machine apart or analyze them. That expertise is not part of the job qualifications. Also the machine builders claim they are proprietary and will not allow analysis. They are just fucking tabulators.
We both agree--there has been no treason involved.
I know there are sanctions--I obviously meant additional sanctions although historically sanctions have not proven effective.
Al Qaida is only at war because the U. S. invaded their country.
If you question Putin's election like Hillary, he probably does not like you, either.
Into the Night
Verified User
Facebook doesn't control the voting systems. As far as the Russians hacking Facebook, Zuckerberg is weirder than any Russian.
Who? Facebook? Facebook isn't a person.
Did you know that both Hillary and Trump are white? Who's acting nutty now?
Do you have any proof other than opinion pieces?
'may have' does not mean 'has'. Words mean things. Voting machines are maintained and installed by local people. Local people take them apart, clean them, lubricate them as necessary, check their proper functioning, and put them back together before each election.
Uh...yes it is.
There is nothing to analyze. They are simple tabulators or even just stylus anvils.
Which means they are not computers. They are not connected to the internet. There is nothing to hack.
Last edited:
Into the Night
Verified User
Not by anything to do with Russia. We aren't at war with Russia. So yes, we both agree that far.
Correct. The sanctions in place aren't proving effective, and they get in the way of trade. That is driving the movement to remove them.
Al Qaida isn't a country. They are not citizens of any one country. It is an international organization. They hate anyone and anything that refuses to follow Sharia Law to the letter. It's just a radical Islamic hate group. They despise anything like freedom and liberty.
That's okay. The feeling's mutual. I don't like Putin either.
What was hacked were the Dem computers, millions of online sites and millions of people's facebook and twitter accounts. Nobody, nobody on this site, nobody is saying there is proof the Putinites hacked voting machines. Can you digest that simple sentence? They were throwing anti-Hillary crap at the rightys, and undecided voters over and over.
However many states were notified that their systems were entered by Russian hackers. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...hackers/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a2cd694c1071
Last edited:
Into the Night
Verified User
Those computer don't have anything to do with an election system.
Also not part of any election system.
Also nothing to do with any election system.
You did. Are you retracting your argument?
Do you really believe any conservative was going to vote for Hillary Clinton? Do you realize how ridiculous your story sounds? That's right up there with the orbital mind control laser stuff.
What? The DMV system? Big deal.
Voting machines are not connected to the internet, dude.
Your computer is not the same as government and party organizations systems. The Russian hackers are far above your ability. We have a huge amount of money and expertise involved in protecting our military, and grids. Corporations spend a ton protecting theirs too. But, you may have noticed, they all get broken into.
The government has the best defenses and systems money can buy, but we all know they are still vulnerable.
Part Multi 313
Verified User
Treason is also an attempt to assassinate a government official or conspire against American liberties by any means tried and true or innovative and cutting edge, peacetime or wartime.
Not according to federal law:
"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States." 18 U.S. Code § 2381. Treason
Presidential assassins have not been charged with treason but with murder or assassination.
The industrialists including Bush hatched a plot to overthrow FDR. They tried to bribe Gen. Smedley Butler to lead the banker's Putsch. Smedley turned them in.
The plotters were tired in secret and then left unpunished. They were not named in public. So if you are rich enough, even treason is legal.
There are different laws for the rich.
I always considered the FDR coup conspiracies like the JFK assassination conspiracies---there were too many different versions to take them seriously.
Wealthy people who avoid conviction just get more publicity than poor people. Every day many poor people have their charges dismissed, are never charged, or get relatively light sentences because of the lack of strong evidence and because of the heavy caseload. The number of crimes for which people are convicted is very low, especially for less serious crimes. Those who commit murder or other violent felonies often get touch sentences. Many more poor people escape justice than wealthy people, it just doesn't make the headlines.