The lost cause mythology

This is actually the first time in my life I can remember an obscure message boarder from England lecturing Americans about our history.

I guess if one spends enough time on message boards, they eventually see it all!
Actually some of the best objective analysis by military historians on the Civil War are British historians. Keegan's analysis on why the South lost the war and Lee's failures as a commanding general are spot on.

Also many Brits are biased towards the Confederacy due to our rejection of Aristocracy and the Confederacy was very much an Aristocracy.
 
Cypress: This is actually the first time in my life I can remember an obscure message boarder from England lecturing Americans about our history.

I guess if one spends enough time on message boards, they eventually see it all!

Actually some of the best objective analysis by military historians on the Civil War are British historians. Keegan's analysis on why the South lost the war and Lee's failures as a commanding general are spot on.

Also many Brits are biased towards the Confederacy due to our rejection of Aristocracy and the Confederacy was very much an Aristocracy.

Right, that's why I said I have never seen an obscure message board poster from England, with no academic training in history, lecturing Americans about our own history.

Regarding your point, I am a big fan of trained scholars, academic achievement, and the pursuit of scholarly knowledge. Things which are typically sorely lacking on message boards, particularly within the right wing!
 
I'm really quite surprised that the only one who, to his credit, is trying to discuss the points I made is Tom and even then he's only addressing one point on the lost cause mythology i.e. The cause of the Civil War.

I figured my comments on Lee not being a great general would be the one to cause a stink or that the South could and probably should have won the Civil War as their objective was far easier than the Souths.
 
I'm really quite surprised that the only one who, to his credit, is trying to discuss the points I made is Tom and even then he's only addressing one point on the lost cause mythology i.e. The cause of the Civil War.

I figured my comments on Lee not being a great general would be the one to cause a stink or that the South could and probably should have won the Civil War as their objective was far easier than the Souths.

Robert E. Lee is a deity in the south, so I doubt southerners would be open to any questions about his military capabilities.

I am no military expert, but have always thought the United States was extremely fortunate to have a military leader like U.S. Grant. One can appreciate how he kicked rebel traitor ass from the Mississippi Valley all the way into Virginia.
 
The Lost Cause Mythology deifies Lee while denigrating Grant as an incompetent butcher. In reality Grant was the Greatest general of the Civil War. His Victory at Vicksburg was a masterpiece of strategy, deception, audacity, celerity, maneuver and concentrating force at the right place in time while being outnumbered by the opposing forces was a masterpiece of command. Most Americans don't truly understand what a huge strategic victory Vicksburg was. In addition his overland campaign in which Grant commanded five field armies in a combined operation showed an incredible ability of command, logistics, administration and strategy.

Lee on the other hand lacked these qualities. Now to be fair to Lee, and I am not going to denigrate him, was indeed a good general. There is no denying his popularity and the affection of his troops. Lee was an excellent engineer and a master of maneuver and, at times, brilliant tactically.

These qualities do not makeup for his deficiencies in administration, logistics, as a strategist, his inability to provide clear orders, his lack of an adequate command staff for planning, communicating and enforcing his commands and his inability to delegate command responsibility to his subordinates, his aggressive campaigns when he should have been on the defensive that denied critical resources to the western campaigns and his wasting manpower the Confederacy could not afford to lose and his myopic focus on the Virginia theater of war proved catastrophic to the Confederate cause.

Clearly Lee was not in the same league as Grant and was not a great general. Probably one of the best indicators of this is Lee failed to win any major battles after he lost Gen. Jackson at Chancellorsville.
 
I contest that he realised that he needed more canon fodder and that was the primary motivation behind emancipation of black slaves.

Well, since he didn't free northern slaves, then yeah

The ultimate question is whether states joining the Union was voluntary and in doing so constituted an irrevocable arrangement.

Secession was and should be a right of ANY state. Anything short of that is tyranny. Whether it was over slavery or taxes is irrelevant to that point.

The left wants to make it solely about slavery so they can romanticize the unlawful action of Lincoln and stir up continued racial tensions.
 
The Lost Cause Mythology deifies Lee while denigrating Grant as an incompetent butcher. In reality Grant was the Greatest general of the Civil War. His Victory at Vicksburg was a masterpiece of strategy, deception, audacity, celerity, maneuver and concentrating force at the right place in time while being outnumbered by the opposing forces was a masterpiece of command. Most Americans don't truly understand what a huge strategic victory Vicksburg was. In addition his overland campaign in which Grant commanded five field armies in a combined operation showed an incredible ability of command, logistics, administration and strategy.

Lee on the other hand lacked these qualities. Now to be fair to Lee, and I am not going to denigrate him, was indeed a good general. There is no denying his popularity and the affection of his troops. Lee was an excellent engineer and a master of maneuver and, at times, brilliant tactically.

These qualities do not makeup for his deficiencies in administration, logistics, as a strategist, his inability to provide clear orders, his lack of an adequate command staff for planning, communicating and enforcing his commands and his inability to delegate command responsibility to his subordinates, his aggressive campaigns when he should have been on the defensive that denied critical resources to the western campaigns and his wasting manpower the Confederacy could not afford to lose and his myopic focus on the Virginia theater of war proved catastrophic to the Confederate cause.

Clearly Lee was not in the same league as Grant and was not a great general. Probably one of the best indicators of this is Lee failed to win any major battles after he lost Gen. Jackson at Chancellorsville.

Good stuff! I defer to others on the topic of military strategy and tactics, but I recently saw a civil war documentary that made much the same case you do. That is, while Robert E. Lee, the traitor rebel general is diefied and held out to be the greatest general of the civil war - and one of the greatest in history - it was actually U.S. Grant that has been vastly under-rated. I mean, just the fact the Grant and Lincoln both were in a position to lead the United States and our army at that pivotal time in history almost makes me believe in fate. Our country really needed truly exceptional men in those roles for that brief four year period of history. If lesser men had been president and General of the Army, who knows what course the civil war would have taken?
 
Good stuff! I defer to others on the topic of military strategy and tactics, but I recently saw a civil war documentary that made much the same case you do. That is, while Robert E. Lee, the traitor rebel general is diefied and held out to be the greatest general of the civil war - and one of the greatest in history - it was actually U.S. Grant that has been vastly under-rated. I mean, just the fact the Grant and Lincoln both were in a position to lead the United States and our army at that pivotal time in history almost makes me believe in fate. Our country really needed truly exceptional men in those roles for that brief four year period of history. If lesser men had been president and General of the Army, who knows what course the civil war would have taken?

I only regret Booth didn't act sooner
 
This is actually the first time in my life I can remember an obscure message boarder from England lecturing Americans about our history.

I guess if one spends enough time on message boards, they eventually see it all!
Shouldn't you be out harassing and sexually stalking women, you're good at that. Superfreak came back briefly to remind us what a pervert you are, shame he didn't stay.

Don't you think the Civil War had a profound effect on Great Britain especially in the cotton mill towns of Lancashire? I don't suppose that you've ever given it a moment's thought or even know anything about it.
 
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Actually some of the best objective analysis by military historians on the Civil War are British historians. Keegan's analysis on why the South lost the war and Lee's failures as a commanding general are spot on.

Also many Brits are biased towards the Confederacy due to our rejection of Aristocracy and the Confederacy was very much an Aristocracy.
We can see very clearly why Lincoln prosecuted the war, it was about money and taxes and control of the Mississippi river.

“From the start, much of the South opposed tariffs because their main purpose was to protect domestic manufacturing, largely a Northern enterprise. At the same time, in the Southern view, tariffs threatened the Southern economy, which was critically dependent on trade with Great Britain. Great Britain was by far the United States’ largest trading partner in the antebellum era, and the most important export to Britain was Southern cotton.”

http://www.abrahamlincolnsclassroom.org/abraham-lincoln-in-depth/abraham-lincoln-and-the-tariff/
 
Actually some of the best objective analysis by military historians on the Civil War are British historians. Keegan's analysis on why the South lost the war and Lee's failures as a commanding general are spot on.

Also many Brits are biased towards the Confederacy due to our rejection of Aristocracy and the Confederacy was very much an Aristocracy.

Now that's rubbish, if you really think most Brits kowtow to the aristocracy then I feel sorry for you. The few of us that take an interest in the Civil War see it in terms of Brexit or the United Kingdom. We would never go to war to secede from the EU or indeed to prevent Scotland from leaving the UK. I just do not see why those states didn't have a perfect right to secede and sink or swim on their own. It may well have been that they would have petitioned to rejoin the Union at a later date or throw in their lot with Great Britain and France. As I've said many times, they would have forced the South to abandon slavery as the price for doing business.
 
I'm really quite surprised that the only one who, to his credit, is trying to discuss the points I made is Tom and even then he's only addressing one point on the lost cause mythology i.e. The cause of the Civil War.

I figured my comments on Lee not being a great general would be the one to cause a stink or that the South could and probably should have won the Civil War as their objective was far easier than the Souths.
Before the war he was considered the greatest officer by no less than Winfield Scott, commander of the US forces before and during the war. He said "Lee was the greatest military genius in America, myself not excepted".
 
Good stuff! I defer to others on the topic of military strategy and tactics, but I recently saw a civil war documentary that made much the same case you do. That is, while Robert E. Lee, the traitor rebel general is diefied and held out to be the greatest general of the civil war - and one of the greatest in history - it was actually U.S. Grant that has been vastly under-rated. I mean, just the fact the Grant and Lincoln both were in a position to lead the United States and our army at that pivotal time in history almost makes me believe in fate. Our country really needed truly exceptional men in those roles for that brief four year period of history. If lesser men had been president and General of the Army, who knows what course the civil war would have taken?
Grant had far more difficult job than Lee. He had invade a hostile region and attack. James McPherson said best when said the Confederacy could win by not losing. The Union had to win by winning.

Meaning the Confederacy only had to fight to a stalemate to win. They did not have to conquer the Union. Which is a far easier task. It is also important to keep in mind that at that time the advantage lay with the defense. Breech loading rifles, mini balls and rifled artilary gave an entrenched defensive a huge advantage.

This where Grant shines over Lee. Lee consistently used the offensive and Napoleonic era frontal attack which incurred massive casualties that the Confederacy could not afford. That turned great tactical victories, like Chancellorsville into strategic losses. Lee ended up suffering greater casualties than he inflicted on opponents due to his offensive operation which were at odds with the strategic goals of the Confederacy.

Grant, on the other hand, suffered fewer losses than Lee in both absolute terms and as a percentage of his forces. Lee's casualty rate as a percentage of his total forces was about 20% where Grants were around 15%. Grant also inflicted greater casualties on his opponents then he suffered from them. This an amazing figure when you consider Grant had to be on the offensive to when at a time when defensive operations had the advantage.

I'll again use Vicksburg as example. To attack Vicksburg Grant had to invade western Missippi, had to cut his lines of communication and supply and had to face numerically superior forces who had the defensive advantage yet he won the Vicksburg campaign, inflicted 35,000 total casualties on the Confederates while his only suffering 9,000 casualties himself.

Grants Vicksburg victory cut the Confederacy in half, gave the Union complete control of the Mississippi River, eliminated Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi and western Tennessee from the war.

Meanwhile Lee decided to go on the offensive by invading Pennsylvania which resulted in the battle of Gettysburg. To do so he denied providing support to Bragg who had Buell's Army of the Ohio trapped outside of Chattanooga and denied support to Pemberton at Vicksburg and actually drew upon men and supplies from those theaters of the war for his his offensive campaign which he lost at Gettysburg. It was a strategic failure of staggering proportions on Lee's behalf. He literally staked the entire war on a gambit and lost his gambit and ultimately the war. This is not the stuff great generals are made from.

If Grant had been in overall command that day instead of Meade the war would have ended that day.

Instead Grant took his Army to Chattanooga where he rescued the trapped Union Army and drove the Army of Tennessee into Georgia which effectively removed Alabama and eastern Tennessee from the war. The Confederate hopes of winning the war were hanging by a thread largely due to Lee's strategic failures and shortly thereafter that thread would be cut.
 
We can see very clearly why Lincoln prosecuted the war, it was about money and taxes and control of the Mississippi river.

“From the start, much of the South opposed tariffs because their main purpose was to protect domestic manufacturing, largely a Northern enterprise. At the same time, in the Southern view, tariffs threatened the Southern economy, which was critically dependent on trade with Great Britain. Great Britain was by far the United States’ largest trading partner in the antebellum era, and the most important export to Britain was Southern cotton.”

http://www.abrahamlincolnsclassroom.org/abraham-lincoln-in-depth/abraham-lincoln-and-the-tariff/
why certainly and to achieve those goals he should have permitted the Union to be divided into a bunch of banana republics that would be completely suitable for sustaining the British empires economy. Why yes, that's exactly what Lincoln should of done. :rolleyes:
 
Now that's rubbish, if you really think most Brits kowtow to the aristocracy then I feel sorry for you. The few of us that take an interest in the Civil War see it in terms of Brexit or the United Kingdom. We would never go to war to secede from the EU or indeed to prevent Scotland from leaving the UK. I just do not see why those states didn't have a perfect right to secede and sink or swim on their own. It may well have been that they would have petitioned to rejoin the Union at a later date or throw in their lot with Great Britain and France. As I've said many times, they would have forced the South to abandon slavery as the price for doing business.
Because Tom it would have turned our nation in a bunch of petty banana republics with weak economic, social and military ties that would have left us vulnerable to colonial exploitation and thwarted the nations industrialization. So no Tom our States do not have the legal right to unilaterally secede. This isn't the European Union. We are one nation. The Civil War settled that question.
 
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Before the war he was considered the greatest officer by no less than Winfield Scott, commander of the US forces before and during the war. He said "Lee was the greatest military [bold]officer[/bold] in America, myself not excepted".
Fixed that quote for you. Scott did indeed say that but facts outweigh words and the facts show clearly that Grant was the greatest general of the Civil War and that Lee has been grossly over rated by lost cause mythogies. Lee played a major role in the Confederacy losing the war, via his failures as a general, they could have won. Generals who lose wars are rarely considered great.
 
why certainly and to achieve those goals he should have permitted the Union to be divided into a bunch of banana republics that would be completely suitable for sustaining the British empires economy. Why yes, that's exactly what Lincoln should of done. :rolleyes:
So you had nearly 700,000 men and over a million slaves die instead, I still don't see how that was even remotely justifiable. I mean you keep hearing how Lincoln freed the slaves. Well some freedom when the land was bought up by Northern banks at a pittance and the ex-slaves worked till they dropped as sharecroppers. Same shit, just a different
name.

Banking

4. Banking. The federal government’s role in the chartering and regulation of banks was a volatile political issue throughout the antebellum period. In 1834 President Andrew Jackson created a major furor when he vetoed a bill to recharter the Second Bank of the United States. Jackson’s veto ushered in a period of that was termed “free banking” in the United States, where the chartering and regulation of banks was left entirely in the hands of state governments. Banks were a relatively new economic institution at this point in time, and opinions were sharply divided over the degree to which the federal government should regulate banks. In the Northeast, where over 60 percent of all banks were located, there was strong support by 1860 for the creation of a system of banks that would be chartered and regulated by the federal government. But in the South, which had little need for local banking services, there was little enthusiasm for such a proposal. Here again, the western states were caught in the middle. While they worried that a system of “national” banks that would be controlled by the already dominant eastern banking establishment, western farmers found themselves in need of local banking services for financing their crops. By 1860 many were inclined to support the Republican proposal for a National Banking System, however Southern opposition killed the National Bank Bill in 1860 (Ransom and Sutch 2001; Bensel 1990).

The growth of an urbanized market society in the North produced more than just a legislative program of political economy that Southerners strongly resisted. Several historians have taken a much broader view of the market revolution and industrialization in the North. They see the economic conflict of North and South, in the words of Richard Brown, as “the conflict of a modernizing society” (1976: 161). A leading historian of the Civil War, James McPherson, argues that Southerners were correct when they claimed that the revolutionary program sweeping through the North threatened their way of life (1983; 1988). James Huston (1999) carries the argument one step further by arguing that Southerners were correct in their fears that the triumph of this coalition would eventually lead to an assault by Northern politicians on slave property rights.

All this provided ample argument for those clamoring for the South to leave the Union in 1861. But why did the North fight a war rather than simply letting the unhappy Southerners go in peace? It seems unlikely that anyone will ever be able to show that the “gains” from the war outweighed the “costs” in economic terms. Still, war is always a gamble, and with the neither the costs nor the benefits easily calculated before the fact, leaders are often tempted to take the risk. The evidence above certainly lent strong support for those arguing that it made sense for the South to fight if a belligerent North threatened the institution of slavery. An economic case for the North is more problematic. Most writers argue that the decision for war on Lincoln’s part was not based primarily on economic grounds. However, Gerald Gunderson points out that if, as many historians argue, Northern Republicans were intent on controlling the spread of slavery, then a war to keep the South in the Union might have made sense. Gunderson compares the “costs” of the war (which we discuss below) with the cost of “compensated” emancipation and notes that the two are roughly the same order of magnitude — 2.5 to 3.7 billion dollars (1974: 940-42). Thus, going to war made as much “economic sense” as buying out the slaveholders. Gunderson makes the further point, which has been echoed by other writers, that the only way that the North could ensure that their program to contain slavery could be “enforced” would be if the South were kept in the Union. Allowing the South to leave the Union would mean that the North could no longer control the expansion of slavery anywhere in the Western Hemisphere (Ransom 1989; Ransom and Sutch 2001; Weingast 1998; Weingast 1995; Wolfson 1995). What is novel about these interpretations of the war is that they argue it was economic pressures of “modernization” in the North that made Northern policy towards secession in 1861 far more aggressive than the traditional story of a North forced into military action by the South’s attack on Fort Sumter.

https://eh.net/encyclopedia/the-economics-of-the-civil-war/
 
Fixed that quote for you. Scott did indeed say that but facts outweigh words and the facts show clearly that Grant was the greatest general of the Civil War and that Lee has been grossly over rated by lost cause mythogies. Lee played a major role in the Confederacy losing the war, via his failures as a general, they could have won. Generals who lose wars are rarely considered great.
The South could never really win, they had nowhere near the manpower and were not even able to manufacture their own weapons. The blockade of southern ports, albeit somewhat porous, succeeded for the most part in depriving southerners of the materiel they needed to successfully prosecute the war.
 
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