The Origin of Life
- Thread starter Dixie - In Memoriam
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Independent Thinker
I was not making an "argument." Frankly, I don't care what you believe and furthermore I have no desire to change it, whatever it may be. I was simply stating what I have personally concluded, based on my experiences and observations.
Get over yourself.
Dixie - In Memoriam
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I agree, and if you read my opening, I clearly stated that any theories we articulate regarding origin of life, are speculation. The point of this thread is not to "prove" or "disprove" the answer, merely to ponder the question.
For instance, you state your view is, the universe contains life-coalescing matter, but why was it able to coalesce here and not elsewhere in our solar system? Other planets surely contain the same life-coalescing materials, so why did life not form in some way there?
Furthermore, is the mere presence of this material an explanation for the wide diversity of life forms we find on our planet? A complete and entire system of various living organisms which support one another in their own unique ways? It's kind of reminding me of the Bugs Bunny episode, where the Martian opens a packet of "dehydrated Martians" and adds water to make an army of soldiers. It's a little extraordinary. I never was much for the "Just Because" theory, I need some tangible explanation other than that.
I'm still having a difficult time understanding how we go from simple-cell carbon-based organisms, to millions of diverse life forms, yet there is no evidence of cross-genus (species) evolution. If we lived in a world where plants routinely turned into animals, and fish routinely turned into mammals, and rocks suddenly became living organisms, then I could believe the life-coalescing materials in our universe just managed to "evolve" themselves into everything we see around us. But that is clearly not the case, so I can find no logical explanation for it. The "science brains" here, keep telling me it's "impossible" there was an intelligent designer, but honestly, without some intelligent input to set these systems in motion, I can't see how it could have happened. It's quite unbelievable to think or conclude, "it just so happens..." and nothing more.
again you need to stop making definitive statements when all logic and statistics point to life being everywhere in the universe, and not that uncommon of a thing.
As for our own solar system, any closer to the sun and microbes burn off.
And there is a lot of speculation of past life on mars and on jupiters moon.
Stop making definitive statements that life doesn't exist elsewhere.
Yup much more unbelievable than some intelligent being magically creating all of us... *sigh*
your understanding of evolution is severely lacking
Dixie - In Memoriam
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No definitive statement that isn't true! No other planet in our solar system has managed to 'coalesce' life, even in the most elementary forms, much less, millions of various forms and varieties. It's just a weird thing, you believe this 'life coalescing' material is all over the universe, and it was able to 'evolve' itself from simple microbes into millions of various forms of life, including intelligent life, in a precisely balanced and self-supporting system (food chain), yet no evidence of anything remotely like it happened anywhere else in the solar system?
Not only do you believe that, but you believe it with no scientific basis, other than a loose theory on how individual species may have adapted and changed over time. There is zero evidence that even one single solitary living thing on this planet, ever "evolved" into a completely different thing. Yes, certain flies changed to other kinds of flies, certain owls changed to other kinds of owls, but fish didn't change to birds, lizards didn't change to dogs, plants didn't change to people! There are millions of different TYPES of life, and no evidence or theory for how they all came about. Yet you believe our universe is just teaming with this magic stuff that makes all of this possible! Even though, it is not seen anywhere on the other planets in our solar system, including the moon, which is the same relative distance from our sun!
I have a perfectly fine understanding of evolution, I think it is an amazing attribute put in place by the intelligent designer, to enable the created life to adapt and change with environmental conditions. But until I see some evidence that one type of life form transformed into another, I can't logically see how we ended up with millions of various life forms. As I said, if we lived in a universe where plants 'evolve' into mammals, etc... THEN maybe I could accept that the universe is just full of life-coalescing material which culminates in the emergence of all kinds of living things. Even then, I would question how the material knows what amount of each thing to make, so as to provide a balanced system which can thrive off of each other in a chain, as we have here on earth. I would still question why we don't see this on at least several other planets in our solar system to some degree. Even if I could find an answer to all of those mysteries, I would still wonder what was the source of this magic miraculous material!
What Damo said.
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Oh fucking god does dix actually expect us to read all of that?
You are stating that life is rare, when science and statisitcs point to it being very abundant in our universe.
you are talking about 8 other planets in our solar system out of TRILLIONS in the universe.
Can you comprehend how small our solar system is compared to our galaxy, let alone the entire universe? Do you not see that 1 planet with intelligent life out of 9 planets is PRETTY FUCKING GOOD?
evolution does not make this claim. Again, perhaps you should familiarize yourself with what evolution is before you start discussing the origin of life.
Haha yes there is a theory. I'll let you figure out what that theory is.
Yes 1 out of 9. That's supposed to be unique.
Yeah but it's missing these little things called an atmosphere and water.
no you don't...
as evidenced by this:
we haven't even really explored our solar system to a significant extent yet to rule any of that out.
Seriously dixie, learn about what evolution really is.
Dixie - In Memoriam
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"Science statistics" WTF? So because you believe the universe is made up of magical life-coalescing materials, it stands to reason there would be life elsewhere, but you can't show it to me, you haven't found evidence of it, and it doesn't exist elsewhere in our solar system... but that somehow refutes my statement that life is not present in our solar system? Forget "statistics" here, focus on what we know and don't know! Life does not exist anywhere on any planet or moon in our solar system. Yet, all the planets have the same access to this magical life-coalescing material because it is all over the universe, according to you.
Well, yeah... but "statistically" speaking, life is only found on one of the planets (and moons) in our solar system. Even though, this miraculous material which enables rocks to turn organic and ultimately produce millions of inter-dependent life forms, is supposedly all over the place!
Not really... not considering the life-coalescing material which enables rocks to become organic, simple-cell organisms to become human beings, and millions of various forms of life to emerge in a system of inter-dependent relationship... no, I think that is pretty dismal. You would think with this amazing stuff, we'd find life everywhere, on all the planets and moons!
Oh, I am well aware ET doesn't make that claim. But the thing is, all those life forms exist... ET doesn't deal with origin of life, which is why it's not a part of this discussion, but you brought it up. ET doesn't explain how we got from simple-cell organisms to intelligent human beings. It offers a POSSIBLE explanation for how certain species adapted and changed with their environment over time. That's a far cry from explaining the millions of different types of life found on earth. Do you have a theory which explains this, or is it just another "just so happens" thing, that you can't explain?
No, there's really not a valid theory to explain all the vast life forms and how they interact with each other in a harmonious natural balance... well, except for "creationism" that is. There isn't any scientific evidence to support any theory for this, and that is why you can't answer the challenge.
Ahh yes... but why? If our universe is composed of this life-coalescing material, why isn't water and atmosphere found on other planets? Did you know, if it weren't for atmospheric pressure, water would not exist in liquid form on earth?
No, I do.. I was giving you an example of what kind of universe we would have to live in, for your theory of evolution to explain the magnitude of life forms on the planet. Listen up! I believe ET is a theory to explain how various species changed and adapted over time, nothing more. I don't believe (and you haven't shown) the theory explains millions of different and diverse species, which are interconnected and interdependent on each other.
Bees pollinate the flowers... without that process, flowers can't grow... so did the bees "coalesce" first? What did they do with their pollen before the flowers came along? Here's a bee, born with the natural inclination to go pollinate something, but there is nothing for him to pollinate! Yikes! Or maybe, the flowers came first... but... they didn't have bees to pollinate them, so how could that be? Now we are left with the possibility that bees and flowers "coalesced" together... but how did the magic life-coalescing material know how to make bees and flowers, or how many of each to make?
What I am saying is, you can't explain the complex, diverse, interdependent multitude of life forms found here, with evolution theory! It just doesn't logically compute! You have no other scientific theory to go by, nothing explains it, nothing can explain it... except intelligent design.
Yes we have. Every planet in our solar system has been examined, some of them in amazing detail, and life doesn't exist anywhere else but earth.
I know what ET is, but it's obvious many of you don't. If you think it offers ANY explanation for the millions of life forms on earth, the natural interconnection of living things, the complexity of the circle of life and food chain... you are a total idiot.
ET merely predicts that certain species adapt and change with their environment.
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No. Natural selection is an aspect of evolution that states that. Evolution theory offers a complete and consistent explanation for ALL of the millions of life forms on earth, and all of its complexity.
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Not true. Bees just make things easier.
You fucking idiot. Pollen is the male sex organ from flowers. Bees don't have it, it rubs off on them when they feed from flowers. It would be truly amazing indeed if bees were born with the male sex organs of the flowers they desired to pollinate.
A bee has no natural inclination to pollinate. It feeds off of the flowers, and the pollen rubs off on it, and when it feeds on another flower, the pollen from the other power rubs off on that one. Flowers can easily reproduce without bees, simply by self-pollinating. Bees are simply one route to pollinization.
By self-pollinating. They have both the female and male sexual organs on themselves, so they can reproduce with themselves. Sexual reproduction just gives a better "crop".
But they have evolved to produce food over time to attract animals to feed off of them, which allows pollen to be rubbed off onto the animal. This is simply more efficient. It's simialar to the strategy that fruit-bearing plants have - spend a lot of energy making these delicious fruits so that animals will eat them and spread their seeds to different areas.
Yeah you don't even know what you're talking about.
Dixie - In Memoriam
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Well, yes it's true. Life has not been found to exist on another planet. If you want to refute that, you need to show the evidence, not just pop off some ignorance and stupidity.
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"Not really... not considering the life-coalescing material which enables rocks to become organic, simple-cell organisms to become human beings, and millions of various forms of life to emerge in a system of inter-dependent relationship... no, I think that is pretty dismal. You would think with this amazing stuff, we'd find life everywhere, on all the planets and moons!"
What the hell are you talking about? This is total bullshit. You want to claim that some "life-coalescing material which enables rocks to become organic, simple-cell organisms"??
Did anyone anywhere say that rocks became simple-cell organisms?
Please show me that quote?
Also, please show us a single element in any living creature that is not found in nonliving, natural surroundings?
What the hell are you talking about? This is total bullshit. You want to claim that some "life-coalescing material which enables rocks to become organic, simple-cell organisms"??
Did anyone anywhere say that rocks became simple-cell organisms?
Please show me that quote?
Also, please show us a single element in any living creature that is not found in nonliving, natural surroundings?
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As far as the bees and flowers are concerned, they could easily have evolved together.
The more primitive flora does not need pollination, and the even more primitive flora has no distinguishable flowers.
Let me give you a likely scenario of how the bees & flowers evolved together.
The more primitive flora does not need pollination, and the even more primitive flora has no distinguishable flowers.
Let me give you a likely scenario of how the bees & flowers evolved together.
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Dixie - In Memoriam
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I didn't say someone said that, please read what I posted instead of knee-jerk reacting.
An element not found in non-living natural surroundings? DNA!
Dixie - In Memoriam
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Really? So the magical life-coalescing material knew that flowers would need bees to pollinate them, and bees would need flowers to pollinate? And it also knew what proportions of each would be a good balance? And it knew all of this before it started "coalescing" them, because it did so harmoniously, so that this balance wasn't interrupted?
Please explain how the fuck this works, because it's making no logical sense to me. I can understand there was this non-organic rock, with amino acids and polymers, under pressure and with the presence of moisture, which eventually enabled microbial life forms to emerge... those grew and thrived... perhaps they even grew into some form of vegetation or botanical life forms... We're still a far cry from warm-blooded intelligent animals. Please explain what theory you are using to support the vast array of living organisms on the planet, which exist in a state of complete support and balance with each other, some of which could simply not exist if it weren't for the other?
Excuse me if I find your beliefs in magical life-coalescing materials to be a little on the miraculous and amazing side. It is astounding that carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, sulfur, and phosphate could combine together and generate the complex and vast interdependent living world we know, without any intelligent help, and purely by random chance... yet it didn't happen anywhere else in our solar system.