The Power of Prayer

[Obtenebrator]

Im sorry, but I just don't a believe it's fitting that a female would instruct a male in spiritual matters.....

You ARE joking, correct?

 

[Blackwater Lunchbreak]

You ARE joking, correct?

most likely.

 

[Cypress]

biochemistry is not the only hard science. Indeed psychology research is just as bound by the limits of inference and analysis as the hard sciences. There's a reason they use all those statistics.

And, yes, they are a legitimate part of conventional medical science research.

Psychology is not a medical science, biological science, or physical science.

It most charitably can be called a social science, and some people dispute whether it is really science at all.

Nobody enrolled in medical school is specializing in psychology.

Dutch has confirmed my intuition: the medical research on the health benefits of positive thinking, prayer, or meditation is pretty negligible, especially compared to conventional topics of medical research

 

[Obtenebrator]

Psychology is not a medical science, biological science, or physical science.

Psychology is a science. You need only read a psychology research paper to see that.

Dutch has confirmed my intuition: the medical research on the health benefits of positive thinking,

Oh, the guy who did a psych degree that he never actually applied? The guy who didn't even know what the DSM was? That guy? Oh well, color me impressed.

prayer, or meditation is pretty negligible, especially compared to conventional topics of medical research

Rather than actually looking at the literature you would prefer the word of your friend who decades ago took psychology classes he never applied as a career?

Your reliance on hearsay, anecdotal data and some sui generis version of what is or isn't science coupled with non-stop ad hominem attacks on sources is interesting to see.

You honestly don't seem to really have much science background yourself.

 

[Cypress]

Psychology is a science. You need only read a psychology research paper to see that.



Oh, the guy who did a psych degree that he never actually applied? The guy who didn't even know what the DSM was? That guy? Oh well, color me impressed.



Rather than actually looking at the literature you would prefer the word of your friend who decades ago took psychology classes he never applied as a career?

Your reliance on hearsay, anecdotal data and some sui generis version of what is or isn't science coupled with non-stop ad hominem attacks on sources is interesting to see.

You honestly don't seem to really have much science background yourself.

Dutch Uncle seems to have really thought about this topic, and given articulate insights. His background in psychology probably is why he has really thought about this

You just did a frantic 30 second google search, and dashed back here to declare victory with a flourish.

Psychology is not a medical science, and is not a specialty in medical school. Medical science research by actual medical scientists on the power of positive thinking is pretty negligible.

I'm going to cut you loose now, because I can't take frantic Googling or attempts to paint psychology as a serious medical science seriously as topic of discussion

 

[Cypress]

Cypress, the only reasonable reply to Obtenebrator is:

Pot...meet kettle. Please note you are both black.

Ob personally attacks posters more than anyone else in this forum...and complains about personal attacks more than anyone else.

Hell of a combo.

It's mostly the sock puppets and the constant name changing that makes me believe Ob's intent to deceive and post in bad faith.

 

[Commander Dutch]

Psychology is not a medical science, biological science, or physical science.

It most charitably can be called a social science, and some people dispute whether it is really science at all.

Nobody enrolled in medical school is specializing in psychology.

Dutch has confirmed my intuition: the medical research on the health benefits of positive thinking, prayer, or meditation is pretty negligible, especially compared to conventional topics of medical research

Disagreed that psychology isn't a science although parts of it don't fit the definition. Psychiatry is less about science and more about experience and communication skills. Behavioral Psychology, the "behavioral science", is very scientific in terms of accumulating and recording data, setting up replicable experiments, and a methodical focus on research.

The “Is Psychology a Science?” Debate

In some ways psychology is a science, but in some ways it is not.

www.psychologytoday.com

The Bottom Line

Is psychology a science? Yes, in the sense that psychology was defined by the application of scientific method(s) and psychologists conduct valuable research and have developed some key insights into animal behavior, cognition, consciousness, and the human condition. But a key feature of real scientific knowledge is that there is a clear, consensual center that provides a foothold to describe how (portions of) the world actually work. And it is here that psychology falls down in ways that physics, chemistry and biology do not. And it is in that sense that psychology is not a real science.

 

[Obtenebrator]

Dutch Uncle seems to have really thought about this topic, and given articulate insights. His background in psychology probably is why he has really thought about this

You just did a frantic 30 second google search, and dashed back here to declare victory with a flourish.

I have Doc on ignore because all he ever posts is hate. I'll take your word for it.

As for my "frantic googling" at least I did something. You just made an unevidence ex cathedra claim and then you attacked literature.

Psychology is not a medical science,

That's a weird parsing because it is a real science. You clearly have never read a psych paper. I will be the last to put it on the same level as say physics but it is still a science and you don't get to decide which science you decree to be real and which not.

I'm going to cut you loose now,

Yeah, that's best. You are incapable of discussing the topic rationally as usual and it is clear that it is pissing you off that someone doesn't agree with you.

because I can't take frantic Googling or attempts to paint psychology as a serious medical science seriously as topic of discussion

I love your "frantic googling" accusation. It's like a thoughtless way to attack anything and everything you don't like and it is your go-to when you are shown to be in error.

 

[Obtenebrator]

It's mostly the sock puppets

You would be wrong. But then you never bother with evidence for your claims anyway.

and the constant name changing that makes me believe Ob's intent to deceive and post in bad faith.

Unlike Doc Dutch aka Dutch Uncle aka Dutch Commander.

 

[Commander Dutch]

Dutch Uncle seems to have really thought about this topic, and given articulate insights. His background in psychology probably is why he has really thought about this

You just did a frantic 30 second google search, and dashed back here to declare victory with a flourish.

Psychology is not a medical science, and is not a specialty in medical school. Medical science research by actual medical scientists on the power of positive thinking is pretty negligible.

I'm going to cut you loose now, because I can't take frantic Googling or attempts to paint psychology as a serious medical science seriously as topic of discussion

Just like physical medical science has come a long way since bleeding with leeches, psychology is leaving the dark ages too. It also helps to understand that psychology is split into several fields besides psychiatry and behaviorism....including some wacky ones such as the KGB and CIA's efforts into mind control.

The power of positive thinking is documentable as shown by the "placebo effect". This is why the "medical sciences" always have control groups including one where a placebo is given when researching treatments. This, of course, is to rule out the power of the mind upon health.

When I was undergoing cancer treatment, my weekly doctor visits included psych questions about my attitude and POV. They were obviously looking for depression and feelings of futility.

Is it really witch doctoring to recognize that depressed patients recover more slowly, if at all, than those with a more positive attitude?

Is faith in a religion psychological or physical? Obviously psychological. Pascal's Wager aside, the mental effects of faith won't stop a bullet but they will certainly help carry a people through very trying circumstances. The whole "there ain't no atheists in foxholes" idea.

 

[Cypress]

Disagreed that psychology isn't a science although parts of it don't fit the definition. Psychiatry is less about science and more about experience and communication skills. Behavioral Psychology, the "behavioral science", is very scientific in terms of accumulating and recording data, setting up replicable experiments, and a methodical focus on research.

The “Is Psychology a Science?” Debate

In some ways psychology is a science, but in some ways it is not.

www.psychologytoday.com

The Bottom Line

Is psychology a science? Yes, in the sense that psychology was defined by the application of scientific method(s) and psychologists conduct valuable research and have developed some key insights into animal behavior, cognition, consciousness, and the human condition. But a key feature of real scientific knowledge is that there is a clear, consensual center that provides a foothold to describe how (portions of) the world actually work. And it is here that psychology falls down in ways that physics, chemistry and biology do not. And it is in that sense that psychology is not a real science.

Yes, I personally think it is a social science. I also noted that some people don't consider psychology, or any of the social sciences, to be real science.

It's certainly not a medical science.

The problem some people (not me) see with psychology, sociology, economics is that human behavior doesn't lend itself to scientific explanation in terms of natural laws and first principles, which is where physics, chemistry, molecular biology excel at.

 

[Obtenebrator]

Yes, I personally think it is a social science. I also noted that some people don't consider psychology, or any of the social sciences, to be real science.

It's certainly not a medical science.

The problem some people (not me) see with psychology, sociology, economics is that human behavior doesn't lend itself to scientific explanation in terms of natural laws and first principles, which is where physics, chemistry, molecular biology excel at.

You so grossly oversimplify the science it's kind of sobering that you claim to be someone trained in science. Human behavior lends itself to scientific explanation in large numbers. Hence all the statistics in a psych paper (really try reading one some time). It's like the stochastic processes that underlie chemistry.

But your point must be adhered to because no one can know as much or more than the mighty Cypress. Otherwise he gets pissy and starts attacking the source rather than the point.

 

[Cypress]

Just like physical medical science has come a long way since bleeding with leeches, psychology is leaving the dark ages too. It also helps to understand that psychology is split into several fields besides psychiatry and behaviorism....including some wacky ones such as the KGB and CIA's efforts into mind control.

The power of positive thinking is documentable as shown by the "placebo effect". This is why the "medical sciences" always have control groups including one where a placebo is given when researching treatments. This, of course, is to rule out the power of the mind upon health.

When I was undergoing cancer treatment, my weekly doctor visits included psych questions about my attitude and POV. They were obviously looking for depression and feelings of futility.

Is it really witch doctoring to recognize that depressed patients recover more slowly, if at all, than those with a more positive attitude?

Is faith in a religion psychological or physical? Obviously psychological. Pascal's Wager aside, the mental effects of faith won't stop a bullet but they will certainly help carry a people through very trying circumstances. The whole "there ain't no atheists in foxholes" idea.

I definitely feel like we just intuitively know from life experience that a strong mental attitude enhances physical resiliency.

To get any drugs for depression, dementia, or OCD, one has to get a prescription from a family doctor or a psychiatrist, because psychologists can't write prescriptions.

I think it's a very good question about whether prayer and meditation enhance physical resiliency, and I suspect they probably do.

Psychology is definitely a very serious and cool field of knowledge.

 

[Commander Dutch]

Yes, I personally think it is a social science. I also noted that some people don't consider psychology, or any of the social sciences, to be real science.

It's certainly not a medical science.

The problem some people (not me) see with psychology, sociology, economics is that human behavior doesn't lend itself to scientific explanation in terms of natural laws and first principles, which is where physics, chemistry, molecular biology excel at.

One of my classes was Behavioral Genetics. It covered genetic mental diseases along with comparative psychology such killer bees. It's pretty sciency.

 

[Commander Dutch]

I definitely feel like we just intuitively know from life experience that a strong mental attitude enhances physical resiliency.

To get any drugs for depression, dementia, or OCD, one has to get a prescription from a family doctor or a psychiatrist, because psychologists can't write prescriptions.

I think it's a very good question about whether prayer and meditation enhance physical resiliency, and I suspect they probably do.

Psychology is definitely a very serious and cool field of knowledge.

What scientific heading would you call research into how a strong mental attitude enhances physical resiliency?

A psychiatrist can write scrip since they have a medical degree. A psychologist may or may not depending upon their credentials.

The research, especially "power of positive thinking", indicates they do.

Agreed. Consider the research into astronauts living in a biodome or in a cave. It's more than physiological. It's also psychological.

 

[Commander Dutch]

I have Doc on ignore because all he ever posts is hate.

^^^
Says the guy who lies, makes grandiose claims of his education and never admits his errors.

 

[Commander Dutch]

You so grossly oversimplify the science it's kind of sobering that you claim to be someone trained in science. ...But your point must be adhered to because no one can know as much or more than the mighty Cypress. Otherwise he gets pissy and starts attacking the source rather than the point.

Another fine example of Perry PhD spreading hate and lies. Sad.

 

[Obtenebrator]

Psychology is definitely a very serious and cool field of knowledge.

And a legitimate area of science and research. You clearly didn't know that.

 

[Cypress]

^^^
Says the guy who lies, makes grandiose claims of his education and never admits his errors.

He does have nice pictures of a mineral and gemstone collection, even if he stole the photos off Reddit from someone else.

 

[Cypress]

What scientific heading would you call research into how a strong mental attitude enhances physical resiliency?

A psychiatrist can write scrip since they have a medical degree. A psychologist may or may not depending upon their credentials.

The research, especially "power of positive thinking", indicates they do.

Agreed. Consider the research into astronauts living in a biodome or in a cave. It's more than physiological. It's also psychological.

Your right, it makes sense that psychology as a social science would study behavior.