The stupidity of politicians continues...

[Cypress]

I agree that we have to take into some account, the stupidity of private citizens who build houses below sea level or in hazardous areas. The rich dude who builds a vacation house on the barrier islands of North Carolina is certainly asking for it.

But, let's be clear: placing the blame on private citizens for having the stupidity for "choosing" to live below sea level is simplistic. It's a caricature.


Read this very carefully: New Orleans was not always below sea level.


The reason it is below sea level now, and prone to flooding is because of the mismanagement by public agencies (i.e., the Army Corps of Engineers) and private developers - and also by oil and gas extraction around New Orleans and Lake ponchatrain by petroleum corporations. Poor management practices by these entities has caused the land in and around New Orleans to subside for decades. In some cases, below sea level.

These practices caused - or at a minimum, exacerbated - the hazards that private citizens in New Orleans now face. The citizens of the 9th Ward, did not cause the land to subside. The practices of public agencies, corporations, and private developers, over several decades, put these people's property at more risk.

So really, all I'm saying is that in many cases, its a more complex problem than blaming stupid private citizens for living in hazardous areas.

 

[LadyT]

I agree that we have to take into some account, the stupidity of private citizens who build houses below sea level or in hazardous areas. The rich dude who builds a vacation house on the barrier islands of North Carolina is certainly asking for it.

But, let's be clear: placing the blame on private citizens for having the stupidity for "choosing" to live below sea level is simplistic. It's a caricature.


Read this very carefully: New Orleans was not always below sea level.


The reason it is below sea level now, and prone to flooding is because of the mismanagement by public agencies (i.e., the Army Corps of Engineers) and private developers - and also by oil and gas extraction around New Orleans and Lake ponchatrain by petroleum corporations. Poor management practices by these entities has caused the land in and around New Orleans to subside for decades. In some cases, below sea level.

These practices caused - or at a minimum, exacerbated - the hazards that private citizens in New Orleans now face. The citizens of the 9th Ward, did not cause the land to subside. The practices of public agencies, corporations, and private developers, over several decades, put these people's property at more risk.

So really, all I'm saying is that in many cases, its a more complex problem than blaming stupid private citizens for living in hazardous areas.

Believe me, I'm not trying to place the blame on Katrina victims. I'm fully aware of the culpability of the Army Corp of Engineers. They should be helped by the feds. However, what I am saying is that now that we know NO is below sea level, federal funds shouldn't be used to repopulate that particular area especially when we are being told the entire region will eventually be under water. Instead the money should go to safer areas that aren't prone to flooding.

 

[Cypress]

and with regard to the concept of wholesale relocating large segments of the american population out of south lousiana, and other flood zones:


We really need to think about this. From both an economic and technical perspective. Making millions of people relocate is a very expensive propostion.


Probably half of the Netherlands is below sea level. The Dutch have been masters of management practices and technologies that have mitigated flooding. When's the last time you heard of a Dutch city being inundated? I haven't. They're masters of levee construction and land management.

Now, I realize they don't get category 5 hurricanes. But, remember, hurricane categories are based on wind velocity. Wind can and does tremendous property damage. In fact, it may generally be the most harmful component of a hurricane that hits land.

But wind does not destroy levees. Precipitation and storm surges do.

I'm quite sure that over the last century, the Netherlands as had its share of severe precipitation and storm surge events. Yet, evidently, their mastery of land management practices has mitigated the problem.

So, before we throw up our arms and declare the problem of land management impossible in these areas - and consequently, tell millions of people to relocate at the cost of perhaps tens of billions of dollars - maybe we can learn something from the Dutch.

 

[LadyT]

and with regard to the concept of wholesale relocating large segments of the american population out of south lousiana, and other flood zones:


We really need to think about this. From both an economic and technical perspective. Making millions of people relocate is a very expensive propostion.


Probably half of the Netherlands is below sea level. The Dutch have been masters of management practices and technologies that have mitigated flooding. When's the last time you heard of a Dutch city being inundated? I haven't. They're masters of levee construction and land management.

Now, I realize they don't get category 5 hurricanes. But, remember, hurricane categories are based on wind velocity. Wind can and does tremendous property damage. In fact, it may generally be the most harmful component of a hurricane that hits land.

But wind does not destroy levees. Precipitation and storm surges do.

I'm quite sure that over the last century, the Netherlands as had its share of severe precipitation and storm surge events. Yet, evidently, their mastery of land management practices has mitigated the problem.

So, before we throw up our arms and declare the problem of land management impossible in these areas - and consequently, tell millions of people to relocate at the cost of perhaps tens of billions of dollars - maybe we can learn something from the Dutch.

Look if its determined that they can live there without high factor of destruction, then fine. But from what I've read they aren't there yet and these people need housing now. Putting them in the same situation isn't going help. If the engineers are capable of making levees that can withstand category 5 hurricanes, then fine. But we have to acknowledge that its a bad idea in the mean time to fund putting them back in harms way if they are economically unable to sustain the loss and the levees haven't been built to sufficient withstand the storms that NO gets.

Any comments on the loan situation?

 

[Cypress]

Look if its determined that they can live there without high factor of destruction, then fine. But from what I've read they aren't there yet and these people need housing now. Putting them in the same situation isn't going help. If the engineers are capable of making levees that can withstand category 5 hurricanes, then fine. But we have to acknowledge that its a bad idea in the mean time to fund putting them back in harms way if they are economically unable to sustain the loss and the levees haven't been built to sufficient withstand the storms that NO gets.

Any comments on the loan situation?

Oh, a short-term solution.

Forgive me, I thought several posters were implying that we should just forget about rebuilding NO.

You're probably right. The problem of temporary, or even semi-permanent housing in the short term is an issue. Having these people to simply move back into flood prone areas, before adequate land management practices are in place to ensure their safety, is definetly something that needs to be resolved. I don't have a clue what to do about that.

I was thinking about long term rebuilding of NO and land management.

 

[TRGLDTE]

Read this very carefully: New Orleans was not always below sea level.

Post-Katrina, PBS did a rather good docnentary on the history of the city of New Orleans. IN it, they noted that "New Orleans" has been inhabited for 300 years - and also that the city experienced its first flood 299 1/2 years ago. Your argument is crap.

 

[Cypress]

Post-Katrina, PBS did a rather good docnentary on the history of the city of New Orleans. IN it, they noted that "New Orleans" has been inhabited for 300 years - and also that the city experienced its first flood 299 1/2 years ago. Your argument is crap.

Please read my post more carefully, prior to hurling insults.

I never said that river delta regions aren't naturally prone to flooding. Particularly in the absence of land managment practices designed to mitigate flooding.

I said that the subsidence of New Orleans to below sea level (thus making it even more susceptible to flooding) was due largely to anthropomorphic land management pracitices.

 

[TRGLDTE]

Please read my post more carefully, prior to hurling insults.

I never said that river delta regions aren't naturally prone to flooding. Particularly in the absence of land managment practices designed to mitigate flooding.

I said that the subsidence of New Orleans to below sea level (thus making it even more susceptible to flooding) was due largely to anthropomorphic land management pracitices.

However, your purpose was to infer that these agencies were responsible for an unknown risk factor. That is untrue.

NO is between the river and the lake, and has been below the water levels of these two for many, many years. It does not border the sea.

As to the actions of those agencies, they were in response to the desires of the people of NO.

 

[Agnosticus_Caesar]

Also, the levees have been "rebuilt" to "Pre-Katrina" standards. Here's an idea:

How about reinforcing the levees to the standards we KNOW they need, rather than just rebuilding them to the SUB-STANDARD levels they were at before Katrina?

 

[Cypress]

However, your purpose was to infer that these agencies were responsible for an unknown risk factor. That is untrue.

If you read my post, I made clear that my point was to point out that it's a caricature that suggests that individual citizens of NO, excerised sheer stupidity in "choosing" to live below sea level. NO wasn't below sea level, until poor land management pracitices by government and corporations induced it.

NO is between the river and the lake, and has been below the water levels of these two for many, many years. It does not border the sea.

Fail to see the relevance. Subsidence of land does not neccessarily have anything to do with proximity to the ocean. Death Valley is below sea level, yet its 300 miles for the ocean.

Again, my point is not that this was an intentional problem created by goverment and private corporations. My intent was to state the complexity of the situation, and to deny the caricature of private citizens stupidly and intentionally "choosing" to live below sea level.

As to the actions of those agencies, they were in response to the desires of the people of NO.

I never mentioned anything about intent. I made a statement of facts, regarding land managment and geography.

 

[Cypress]

Also, the levees have been "rebuilt" to "Pre-Katrina" standards. Here's an idea:

How about reinforcing the levees to the standards we KNOW they need, rather than just rebuilding them to the SUB-STANDARD levels they were at before Katrina?

My guess is that this is only a short term solution. Rebuilding the levees to pre-katrina standards may have only been intended as a stop-gap measure.

Rebuilding and funding the levees to meet category 4 or 5 specifications, probably takes a substantial amount of engineering studies, environmental impact studies, and legislative appropriations. It's probably a multi-year project.

Simply getting them back to their pre-katrina standards was probably relatively quick and painless. A stop-gap measure, in effect.

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Again, my point is not that this was an intentional problem created by goverment and private corporations. My intent was to state the complexity of the situation, and to deny the caricature of private citizens stupidly and intentionally "choosing" to live below sea level.

Hear, hear!

The issue is complex and I suspect that each individual case really needs to be judged on its own merits: we can't say that all homeowners deserve assistance nor can we say that none do. It is unfair, unreasonable and inhumane, however, to blanket everyone living in such regions with the stupid rap.

 

[Cypress]

TROG: NO is between the river and the lake, and has been below the water levels of these two for many, many years. It does not border the sea.

Oh, sorry trog. I think i see what you're saying: that the city's topographical elevation with respect to sea level is not the issue. That it is, in fact, irrelevant for me to bring up sea level. The issue is (in your view?) NO being below the base level of the Mississipi River and "Lake" Ponchatrain.


Actually trog, "Lake" Ponchatrain, isn't really a lake.

It's an estuary - a landward extension of the sea, in effect. So Lake Ponchatrain (and flooding from it) is directly related to tidal surges from the ocean; aka, it's related to the City's elevation with respect to sea leveL.

 

[LadyT]

Having these people to simply move back into flood prone areas, before adequate land management practices are in place to ensure their safety, is definetly something that needs to be resolved. I don't have a clue what to do about that.

Allow them to relocate to a safer place.

 

[Cancel5]

Hear, hear!

The issue is complex and I suspect that each individual case really needs to be judged on its own merits: we can't say that all homeowners deserve assistance nor can we say that none do. It is unfair, unreasonable and inhumane, however, to blanket everyone living in such regions with the stupid rap.

I believe the experts in fjord areas were called in, but funds to make changes are just not available at this time.

I saw a documentary on how the Netherlands controls their flooding of the below sea level areas.

Why do we have to make things so difficult here?

 

[Cancel5]

Hear, hear!

The issue is complex and I suspect that each individual case really needs to be judged on its own merits: we can't say that all homeowners deserve assistance nor can we say that none do. It is unfair, unreasonable and inhumane, however, to blanket everyone living in such regions with the stupid rap.

I believe the experts in fjord areas were called in, but funds to make changes are just not available at this time.

I saw a documentary on how the Netherlands controls their flooding of the below sea level areas.

Why do we have to make things so difficult here?

 

[uscitizen]

I believe the experts in fjord areas were called in, but funds to make changes are just not available at this time.

I saw a documentary on how the Netherlands controls their flooding of the below sea level areas.

Why do we have to make things so difficult here?

It is obvious that we have a more nearsighted view than those in the Netherlands. In many other areas as well, such as poor mass transit.

 

[Cancel5]

Isn't that the truth!

 

[Topspin]

Failed Federal levee's is why New Orleans flooded.
They are in fact just about to start passing out lump sum checks of $150,000 for people to rebuild.
Personally I'm moving 40 miles north and will be glad to be 18ft above sea level. Most of New Orleans is betwee Da Lake and the River, that's why they call it a bowl; Levee collapsed and the bowl filled up.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

"Sorry, but my bleeding liberal heart stops at stupid."

Best line ever.