The working class is getting royally screwed.

[Matt Dillon]

You misunderstood. I puled these numbers from the sites I linked to. Check them yourself, if you don't believe me.

No, I didn't misunderstand. Your methodology was dishonest as fuck from the jump.

I bet you don't don't know what Gold Triangle was. I do.

There's a lot of things I know that you don't, and may never; And there's a lot of things you know that just aren't so.

Tell me what Gold Triangle was.

 

[Mina]

we don't have a bell curve society.

We don't have a normally distributed bell curve, in that incomes frequencies rise quickly, but then fall slowly, such that there's a "long tail."

http://theglitteringeye.com/images/us-income-distribution.gif

But we do have clustering of incomes near the median. For example, in 2020, median household income was $67,521. About 1/4 of household are between 75% of that and 125% of it, and about 3/4 of households earns between 50% and 200% of it. So, when we talk about medians, we're talking about something that is very close to about a quarter of the populations position, and fairly close to a large majority of the population's position.

As such, it's definitely not a meaningless measure. It's a good way of gauging roughly where the bulk of the society is sitting, which is helpful for addressing questions like whether the middle class has been gaining or losing ground.

There are other ways to look at it, though. See here:

https://www2.census.gov/programs-su...eries/historical-income-households/h01ar.xlsx

Using the "2020 Dollars" table there (so everything is adjusted for inflation, you can see how things have been going at the 20th, 40th, 60th, 80th, and 95th percentiles (where median just tells you where it has been for the 50th).

What you'll see if you look there is that each of those groups is up since 1982. If you take the 20th-40th percentile range as a proxy for the "working class" (not poor enough to be in the bottom tier, but not quite solidly middle class), then incomes rose from the range of $21,709-$41,288, 40 years ago, to the range of $27,026-$52,179 most recently. So, again, that's consistent with my view that they've generally gained ground.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

We don't have a normally distributed bell curve, in that incomes frequencies rise quickly, but then fall slowly, such that there's a "long tail."

http://theglitteringeye.com/images/us-income-distribution.gif

But we do have clustering of incomes near the median. For example, in 2020, median household income was $67,521. About 1/4 of household are between 75% of that and 125% of it, and about 3/4 of households earns between 50% and 200% of it. So, when we talk about medians, we're talking about something that is very close to about a quarter of the populations position, and fairly close to a large majority of the population's position.

As such, it's definitely not a meaningless measure. It's a good way of gauging roughly where the bulk of the society is sitting, which is helpful for addressing questions like whether the middle class has been gaining or losing ground.

There are other ways to look at it, though. See here:

https://www2.census.gov/programs-su...eries/historical-income-households/h01ar.xlsx

Using the "2020 Dollars" table there (so everything is adjusted for inflation, you can see how things have been going at the 20th, 40th, 60th, 80th, and 95th percentiles (where median just tells you where it has been for the 50th).

What you'll see if you look there is that each of those groups is up since 1982. If you take the 20th-40th percentile range as a proxy for the "working class" (not poor enough to be in the bottom tier, but not quite solidly middle class), then incomes rose from the range of $21,709-$41,288, 40 years ago, to the range of $27,026-$52,179 most recently. So, again, that's consistent with my view that they've generally gained ground.

please stop. you're a moron.

are you denying purchasing power has gone down?

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

"close to a quarter but also close to large majority" please stop.


you're murdering language and thought.

 

[Mina]

No, I didn't misunderstand. Your methodology was dishonest as fuck from the jump.

What makes you think so? Be specific, please.

I bet you don't don't know what Gold Triangle was. I do.

I know about a golden triangle -- an isosceles triangle with a particular ratio the ancient Greeks grooved on. I also know that "golden triangle" referred to an area in Southeast Asia known for opium. There was a Robert Downey Jr. movie about CIA drug shipments there. I'm not sure what the "gold triangle" was, though.

 

[Mina]

please stop. you're [far too knowledgeable for me to dispute]

are you denying purchasing power has gone down?

I'm saying purchasing power has gone up since 40 years ago. Even after accounting for inflation, people are earning more today at the 20th, 40th, 50th, 60th, 80th, and 95th percentiles, and average earnings have also risen. Do you think it has gone down? Which particular indicator shows that?

 

[Mina]

"close to a quarter but also close to large majority" please stop.


you're murdering language and thought.

You misunderstood. Try rereading. It should have told you something when you had to invent a quotation, rather than quoting my actual words.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

You misunderstood. Try rereading. It should have told you something when you had to invent a quotation, rather than quoting my actual words.

no thanks.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

I'm saying purchasing power has gone up since 40 years ago. Even after accounting for inflation, people are earning more today at the 20th, 40th, 50th, 60th, 80th, and 95th percentiles, and average earnings have also risen. Do you think it has gone down? Which particular indicator shows that?

purchasing power.

 

[Matt Dillon]

What makes you think so? Be specific, please.



I know about a golden triangle -- an isosceles triangle with a particular ratio the ancient Greeks grooved on. I also know that "golden triangle" referred to an area in Southeast Asia known for opium. There was a Robert Downey Jr. movie about CIA drug shipments there. I'm not sure what the "gold triangle" was, though.

Yeah, I'm sure you don't.

If you can research what "Gold Triangle" was and tell me, I'll give you some props.

If you manage to, you have some decent research skills. If you can't, you don't.

I already know, but I'll do it too.

Oh shit! It wasn't what I thought it was...wow.

 

[Matt Dillon]

I'm saying purchasing power has gone up since 40 years ago. Even after accounting for inflation, people are earning more today at the 20th, 40th, 50th, 60th, 80th, and 95th percentiles, and average earnings have also risen. Do you think it has gone down? Which particular indicator shows that?

Yeah no. Not on ary a damn thing except televisions. Oh! And phone use.

What people are earning does not equate to the purchasing power of a dollar, girl.

And I'll give you a little hint: A lot of people are not earning that much.

Basically you're just lying out your ass right now.

 

[Mina]

The Bell curve is theoretical, I'm talking real life here.

What you're doing is trying to assert that your recollections of your personal experiences should be regarded as evidence of what happened in the country overall. For obvious reasons, I'm not playing along. Even setting aside the possibility you're lying or that your memory is shit, there's the obvious fact your personal experiences might be atypical. So, I'm looking for verifiable data to support your position. If you've got any, just share it.

That sizable portion of the population you speak of is in the upper middle class.

We're talking semantics here, but if "upper middle" is the area both above and below the middle, then you've tortured the language to the point of it losing all sense. It's like having a five-story building, and you refer to stories 2-through-4 as the "upper middle" portion of the building. That just doesn't make any sense.

Again, the median is the middle. If we were talking building height for a five-story building, it would be the third floor. What I'm talking about, with stuff that's close to the middle, is stories two through four of that building. Calling that "upper-middle" is just weird.

But, if you want to talk about people at say the 20th percentile instead, then as mentioned in the post above (and supported by the link), the 20th percentile now is earning more, even after adjusting for inflation, than the 20th percentile was earning 40 years ago. And if you look at the poverty rate, you'll see that the poverty rate has fallen in that time -- with the poverty threshold being calculated based on a dollar figure that gets adjusted by inflation each year. So, for those down around the poverty rate (in that 10th-15th percentile range), real incomes have also risen.

I know the verifiable indicators are uncomfortable for you, since they don't harmonize with the positions you're insisting on. But they aren't going anywhere.

 

[Matt Dillon]

What you're doing is trying to assert that your recollections of your personal experiences should be regarded as evidence of what happened in the country overall. For obvious reasons, I'm not playing along. Even setting aside the possibility you're lying or that your memory is shit, there's the obvious fact your personal experiences might be atypical. So, I'm looking for verifiable data to support your position. If you've got any, just share it.



We're talking semantics here, but if "upper middle" is the area both above and below the middle, then you've tortured the language to the point of it losing all sense. It's like having a five-story building, and you refer to stories 2-through-4 as the "upper middle" portion of the building. That just doesn't make any sense.

Again, the median is the middle. If we were talking building height for a five-story building, it would be the third floor. What I'm talking about, with stuff that's close to the middle, is stories two through four of that building. Calling that "upper-middle" is just weird.

But, if you want to talk about people at say the 20th percentile instead, then as mentioned in the post above (and supported by the link), the 20th percentile now is earning more, even after adjusting for inflation, than the 20th percentile was earning 40 years ago. And if you look at the poverty rate, you'll see that the poverty rate has fallen in that time -- with the poverty threshold being calculated based on a dollar figure that gets adjusted by inflation each year. So, for those down around the poverty rate (in that 10th-15th percentile range), real incomes have also risen.

I know the verifiable indicators are uncomfortable for you, since they don't harmonize with the positions you're insisting on. But they aren't going anywhere.

You know nothing and prattle on anyway.

How much debt do you have again?

My personal experiences were typical of everyone in America at that time. Also for decades, ney, centuries before that time.

But you know better, huh?

You go ahead and roll with that. You do you, and we'll do us, ok?

Obviously your parents never called you out for lying. Back in my day you would gotten a spanking.

I bet you've never ridden a bicycle without a helmet, and in 1982 I was doing tabletops 6' in the air with Hutch Bear Trap pedals and my shins still know it.

 

[Mina]

purchasing power.

Show me a link showing higher purchasing power 40 years ago than today.

 

[Mina]

Yeah, I'm sure you don't.

If you can research what "Gold Triangle" was and tell me, I'll give you some props.

If you manage to, you have some decent research skills. If you can't, you don't.

I already know, but I'll do it too.

Oh shit! It wasn't what I thought it was...wow.

Don't take this the wrong way, but since I've never seen you post even one intelligent thing here, I hope you'll understand why I'm not interested in a wild goose chase for some random phrase you think is important. If you want to share it, feel free. If not, don't.

 

[Matt Dillon]

Don't take this the wrong way, but since I've never seen you post even one intelligent thing here, I hope you'll understand why I'm not interested in a wild goose chase for some random phrase you think is important. If you want to share it, feel free. If not, don't.

Go eat a bag of dicks, you dishonest leftist sophist rotten fuck.

I'm gonna be kicking your ass all over the place because you lie.

Don't take this the wrong way, but your sophistry goes over here like a Lead Zeppelin here.

What you fail to see as intelligent is your comprehension problem, not mine.

PS: I know how your brain is crosswired and how to shut you down.

I know how to make your brain short-circuit.

It's a flaw in the leftist indoctrination and I know how to exploit it.

This will be fun! Almost like the blue screen days of AOL!

 

[Mina]

Yeah no. Not on ary a damn thing except televisions. Oh! And phone use.

What people are earning does not equate to the purchasing power of a dollar, girl.

Purchasing power refers to the financial ability to buy products and services. It has two factors: how much money people have, and how much a given amount of money will buy. When we look at real incomes, it factors both those things in, by taking the amount people are earning and adjusting it by how much things cost over time. What that tells us is that incomes are up, relative to 40 years ago, for people at the 10th, 20th, 40th, 50th, 60th, 80th 95th, and 99th percentiles in the incomes distribution, at least. If you have data showing real incomes down for some group relative to 40 years ago, just share it.

Basically you're just lying out your ass right now.

What lie, specifically, do you think I've told? Just quote the particular false statement I made, and link to the evidence showing it's false.

 

[Mina]

You know nothing and prattle on anyway.

How much debt do you have again?

About $35k. You?

My personal experiences were typical of everyone in America at that time.

What makes you think that? Be specific.

But you know better,

Yes, agreed, I do. That's because I don't rely on vague, gut-level impressions taken from the eccentricities of my personal experiences. Instead, I rely on data.

Obviously your parents never called you out for lying.

What you need to keep in mind is that I was raised by good and decent people who instilled a sense of honesty and fair-play in me. You were raised by a father who snuck into your bed at night to sodomize you, and a mother who told you to keep quiet about it. Thus, the people we later became.

I bet you've never ridden a bicycle without a helmet

You bet wrong.

 

[Mina]

Go eat a bag of dicks, you dishonest leftist sophist rotten fuck.

I'm gonna be kicking your ass all over the place because you lie.

Don't take this the wrong way, but your sophistry goes over here like a Lead Zeppelin.

What you fail to see as intelligent is your comprehension problem, not mine.

PS: I know how your brain is crosswired and how to shut you down.

Awwww, I hurt the poor little imbecile's feelings. A little tip for you: when you're too old to handle yourself intelligently in a debate, it's a good idea to at least be civil, so that nobody feels the urge to smack you down, because when that happens, you lack the mental ability to defend yourself. It's pathetic, really.

Also, if you're going to capitalize "Lead Zeppelin," it suggests you're referring to the band, rather than just a Zeppelin made of lead. In that case, spell it right. It's "Led Zeppelin."

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

Show me a link showing higher purchasing power 40 years ago than today.

I already gave you a link.

choose one of those graphs. knock yourself out.