THE "YOU DON'T LOVE THE CONSTITUTION" CRAP IN THIS FORUM!

Ross Dolan

Ross Dolan

Well-known member
Contributor
One sees lots of variations on the theme, "You don't love (respect) the Constitution and Bill of Rights" crap here in this forum...almost always including "warnings" about the danger of "government" overreach.

Well...I personally think there is MUCH LESS DANGER from government going amok...or from our government becoming tyrannical…than there is from our citizens being unwilling to be governed.

I doubt any of us right now, except perhaps Donald Trump, wants a dictatorship; I doubt any of us, except perhaps Donald Trump, wants governmental tyranny.

But THE REAL DANGER RIGHT NOW IN AMERICA does not come from the danger of dictatorship, even with that dictator wanna-be in office...or serious governmental overreach. It comes, rather, from the fact that a significant minority of the people want not to be governed at all. They deplore government…the single most important ingredient in civilized society.

I suspect a lot of that absurdity was started during the first inaugural address by Ronald Reagan. As chief executive, he unwisely endorsed the notion of hatred of “being governed” with his (just about always, unfortunately, quoted out of context), “…government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.”

He was wrong…or at least, I sure as hell hope he was wrong, because if he was correct…democracy does not stand a chance of success. Democracy demands that government be a MAJOR FACTOR in the solution to problems…and there is no chance of democracy working if government truly is the problem.

And government requires that the people being governed...CONSENT TO BEING GOVERNED.

Just sayin’!
 
So you think big government is infallable. Government is run by people and people make mistakes. An example is the scandal of the VA treatment of vets. Our government deciding what is best for you. No I love this country and wore the uniform for 24 years but I also know that no matter what our government isn't perfect.
 
Eagle Eye said:
So you think big government is infallable.
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Holy Toledo...that is hyperbole even in excess of what I've come to expect from any poster.

I DEFY you to show where I said that...or inferred that.

(Don't look...it's not there. I would never suggest such a thing.)

Government is run by people and people make mistakes.
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They do indeed. And that does not impact on any thing I've said so far.


An example is the scandal of the VA treatment of vets.
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I am a vet...and the VA saved my life when I developed cancer and had no insurance. They did a fabulous job...and I am alive 16 years later because of it. Yeah...there are things wrong with the VA hospitals, Eagle...BUT you know what...they are not appreciably different from the things wrong in for-profit hospitals.

So?

Our government deciding what is best for you. No I love this country and wore the uniform for 24 years but I also know that no matter what our government isn't perfect.
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I served...not for 24 years, but I served.

Yeah, the government isn't perfect...AND I HAVE NEVER SUGGESTED IT IS.

So what is your point?
 
Frank Apisa said:
One sees lots of variations on the theme, "You don't love (respect) the Constitution and Bill of Rights" crap here in this forum...almost always including "warnings" about the danger of "government" overreach.

Well...I personally think there is MUCH LESS DANGER from government going amok...or from our government becoming tyrannical…than there is from our citizens being unwilling to be governed.

I doubt any of us right now, except perhaps Donald Trump, wants a dictatorship; I doubt any of us, except perhaps Donald Trump, wants governmental tyranny.

But THE REAL DANGER RIGHT NOW IN AMERICA does not come from the danger of dictatorship, even with that dictator wanna-be in office...or serious governmental overreach. It comes, rather, from the fact that a significant minority of the people want not to be governed at all. They deplore government…the single most important ingredient in civilized society.

I suspect a lot of that absurdity was started during the first inaugural address by Ronald Reagan. As chief executive, he unwisely endorsed the notion of hatred of “being governed” with his (just about always, unfortunately, quoted out of context), “…government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.”

He was wrong…or at least, I sure as hell hope he was wrong, because if he was correct…democracy does not stand a chance of success. Democracy demands that government be a MAJOR FACTOR in the solution to problems…and there is no chance of democracy working if government truly is the problem.

And government requires that the people being governed...CONSENT TO BEING GOVERNED.

Just sayin’!
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I deplore a government that goes beyond it's authority. I deplore individuals like you that support a government going beyond it's authority.

The real danger to America are those with the mindset that although a government doesn't have the authority to do something, we like it so it's OK this time.

I can understand at your advanced age why you want more government involvement. You're too fucking senile and too fucking lazy to do for yourself.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Holy Toledo...that is hyperbole even in excess of what I've come to expect from any poster.

I DEFY you to show where I said that...or inferred that.

(Don't look...it's not there. I would never suggest such a thing.)



They do indeed. And that does not impact on any thing I've said so far.




I am a vet...and the VA saved my life when I developed cancer and had no insurance. They did a fabulous job...and I am alive 16 years later because of it. Yeah...there are things wrong with the VA hospitals, Eagle...BUT you know what...they are not appreciably different from the things wrong in for-profit hospitals.

So?



I served...not for 24 years, but I served.

Yeah, the government isn't perfect...AND I HAVE NEVER SUGGESTED IT IS.

So what is your point?
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You should thank the taxpayers. We're the ones that footed the bill when your freeloading ass didn't have insurance.
 
people who are more afraid of freedom than they are of government are always the ones declaring that the constitution doesn't limit government, but restricts the people. this is patent bullshit because the constitution defines the limited powers via the articles. ALL of the founders believed in a limited government and made great pains to make sure that we the people understood this for ratification
 
SmarterthanYou said:
people who are more afraid of freedom than they are of government are always the ones declaring that the constitution doesn't limit government, but restricts the people...
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I don't know of anyone who does that...but I do hear nonsense like that coming from adherents of American conservatism.

It must be the water they feed ya!

this is patent bullshit because the constitution defines the limited powers via the articles.
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No one is disputing that.

You are keeping up...right?

ALL of the founders believed in a limited government and made great pains to make sure that we the people understood this for ratification
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So what?

I am not advocating dictatorship. I am calling attention to the fact that a significant minority of the people want not to be governed at all. They deplore government…the single most important ingredient in civilized society.

I suspect you may be one of those people.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I don't know of anyone who does that...but I do hear nonsense like that coming from adherents of American conservatism.

It must be the water they feed ya!
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you're starting to expose yourself for what you are. you apparently can only think in two dimensional patterns, like left and right. Some of us are Libertarian, and the Constitution/Bill of Rights is all that matters. Ensuring that government stay within the limited confines of that precious document and rail against anyone/anything that tries to tell us that restricting freedom is constitutional.

Frank Apisa said:
No one is disputing that.

You are keeping up...right?
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keeping up with your side stepping and backing off your previous statements, yes I am.

Frank Apisa said:
So what?

I am not advocating dictatorship. I am calling attention to the fact that a significant minority of the people want not to be governed at all. They deplore government…the single most important ingredient in civilized society.

I suspect you may be one of those people.
Click to expand...

You had a major disservice done to you growing up by someone teaching you that government is the single most important ingredient in civilized society....mainly because the government isn't civilized. It's raw and evil power. Sometimes a necessary evil, but evil nonetheless. The single most important ingredient in civilized society is people respecting the rights and freedoms of others.
 
SmarterthanYou said:
you're starting to expose yourself for what you are. you apparently can only think in two dimensional patterns, like left and right. Some of us are Libertarian, and the Constitution/Bill of Rights is all that matters. Ensuring that government stay within the limited confines of that precious document and rail against anyone/anything that tries to tell us that restricting freedom is constitutional.
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I am proud of what I am...and if I "exposing" what I am...great.

Libertarianism is probably the only political philosophy that I think soils our democracy more than American conservatism.

You are one of the people who do not want to be governed. But "being governed" is at the heart of democracy and civilization.

We will survive the likes of you.


keeping up with your side stepping and backing off your previous statements, yes I am.
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Since I am not side-stepping or backing off...apparently you are not keeping up.

Sad!

You had a major disservice done to you growing up by someone teaching you that government is the single most important ingredient in civilized society....mainly because the government isn't civilized. It's raw and evil power. Sometimes a necessary evil, but evil nonetheless. The single most important ingredient in civilized society is people respecting the rights and freedoms of others.
Click to expand...

As I said, we (our nation, our ideals) will survive the likes of you.
 
CFM said:
I deplore a government that goes beyond it's authority. I deplore individuals like you that support a government going beyond it's authority.

The real danger to America are those with the mindset that although a government doesn't have the authority to do something, we like it so it's OK this time.

I can understand at your advanced age why you want more government involvement. You're too fucking senile and too fucking lazy to do for yourself.
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Yep. you are one of the deplorables. Fact is the government has to constantly change to reflect the new and reborn society we live in. The government that worked in 1776 is not the one that could serve us in 1850. It was not enough in 1900, 1950 or 2000. The constitution was designed to change with the times, and you fools keep talking about a need to stay with 1776 laws. The government and its agency are what protests you, YES YOU, from the wealthy and powerful and corp[orations. I see why they bitch about the government. They think they deserve all the power and money. They want it and the government stands between them and ultimate power. And you idiots think the government is your enemy and the wealthy and powerful are on your side. You should actually try and learn something.
 
Frank Apisa said:
Holy Toledo...that is hyperbole even in excess of what I've come to expect from any poster.

I DEFY you to show where I said that...or inferred that.

(Don't look...it's not there. I would never suggest such a thing.)



They do indeed. And that does not impact on any thing I've said so far.




I am a vet...and the VA saved my life when I developed cancer and had no insurance. They did a fabulous job...and I am alive 16 years later because of it. Yeah...there are things wrong with the VA hospitals, Eagle...BUT you know what...they are not appreciably different from the things wrong in for-profit hospitals.

So?



I served...not for 24 years, but I served.

Yeah, the government isn't perfect...AND I HAVE NEVER SUGGESTED IT IS.

So what is your point?
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Read your 2nd paragraph sport.
 
Nordberg said:
Yep. you are one of the deplorables. Fact is the government has to constantly change to reflect the new and reborn society we live in. The government that worked in 1776 is not the one that could serve us in 1850. It was not enough in 1900, 1950 or 2000. The constitution was designed to change with the times, and you fools keep talking about a need to stay with 1776 laws. The government and its agency are what protests you, YES YOU, from the wealthy and powerful and corp[orations. I see why they bitch about the government. They think they deserve all the power and money. They want it and the government stands between them and ultimate power. And you idiots think the government is your enemy and the wealthy and powerful are on your side. You should actually try and learn something.
Click to expand...

I agree that the Constitution was designed to change with the times. The founding fathers agreed so much they put a provision in the Constitution on how it should be changed. It's your problem you don't like the process and think it can be ignored.
 
Nordberg said:
Yep. you are one of the deplorables. Fact is the government has to constantly change to reflect the new and reborn society we live in. The government that worked in 1776 is not the one that could serve us in 1850. It was not enough in 1900, 1950 or 2000. The constitution was designed to change with the times, and you fools keep talking about a need to stay with 1776 laws. The government and its agency are what protests you, YES YOU, from the wealthy and powerful and corp[orations. I see why they bitch about the government. They think they deserve all the power and money. They want it and the government stands between them and ultimate power. And you idiots think the government is your enemy and the wealthy and powerful are on your side. You should actually try and learn something.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, Nordberg.

WE are the government.

Yeah...government CAN get out of control. But here in the United States...right now...

...I fear the government much less than I fear this "I hate government" and "I will not be governed" mentality that seems to have developed.

Government...is the vehicle that allows civilization to exist.

But getting through to some of these guys is like trying to walk through a concrete wall.
 
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