Unthinkable? Will Bush Cancel The 2008 Election?

If you want to see the actions of a military where it is illegal not to follow any order whatsoever or you will be sent to a far worse place than Leavenworth check on Tiananmen square. And if you think most of the guys in the army would just literally run over a crowd of people using their first amendment rights..
 
If you want to see the actions of a military where it is illegal not to follow any order whatsoever or you will be sent to a far worse place than Leavenworth check on Tiananmen square. And if you think most of the guys in the army would just literally run over a crowd of people using their first amendment rights..

Damo you do a lot of projecting.
 
Damo you do a lot of projecting.
He is quite literally saying that because I was in the Navy I would gladly have followed those orders while I was in. I know for a fact that he is wrong. It is personal. Anybody who believes that everybody in the military will just do these things is repulsive to me. They project onto me some of the worst things, and say that I would have done them. I was in the military....
 
If you want to see the actions of a military where it is illegal not to follow any order whatsoever or you will be sent to a far worse place than Leavenworth check on Tiananmen square. And if you think most of the guys in the army would just literally run over a crowd of people using their first amendment rights..


Under the right conditions, people (whether soldiers or not), can be made to do the most horrific and illegal things. Surely, you've read about that experiment (I forget which university it was), where students were instructed to apply electrical shocks to to supposed "volunteers" . And many of the students complied.
 
Under the right conditions, people (whether soldiers or not), can be made to do the most horrific and illegal things. Surely, you've read about that experiment (I forget which university it was), where students were instructed to apply electrical shocks to to supposed "volunteers" . And many of the students complied.
I haven't. But I'd be fascinated by it. "Some" students did, others did not. I would assume that it was because they were not reassured that they were volunteers by the volunteers themselves? But I could be wrong.

"Some" in the military would follow those orders, but they would have to fight those who would not. In the end I believe that there are far more in the military that wouldn't round up americans and put them in camps regardless of orders than there are that would. Mostly because of my experience in the military which is personal. Some of the best people I have ever met still serve.
 
They are not always followed, this assumption that every soldier, sailor, marine, airman becomes an automaton willing to do anything that they are told is ridiculous. If it were so the South never would have seceded as those in the military down there would have just did what Lincoln told them to.

Or nobody ever would have found out about Abu Ghraib as there were orders not to send out pictures. Or nobody would have known what happened in Tikrit because everybody would have jumped on the silence orders. Or so on...

It is not as simplistic as you attempt to make it. Nor would I ever want it to be.

I'm not trying to make it simplistic at all nor saying that every soldier would follow those orders, but those who don't would be in the minority .. even using the examples you gave. I'm saying there is precedent for US soldiers engaging innocent American citizens and following what would later be deemed as illegal orders.

I repeat that soldiers in the field don't always know what is illegal and are rarely in a position to make that determination while in the midst of an operation. My brother and I watched a tank rolling down Davison Avenue in '67 and when it got to the corner of Woodrow Wilson the turrent turned and the machine gun fired about 200 rounds into an apartment building across the street. We ran like hell not knowing where it was going to fire next. As it turns out, the gunner fired into an apartment because he saw what he thought was the flash of a gun .. which was actually a man looking out his window while lighting a cigarette. He was dead.

The next day my brother had a bayonet pushed into his back by a National Guardsman.

Like Kent State, Jackson State, and elsewhere, putting the military in a confrontational position with innocent Americans leads to dead Americans.

I do not share your faith that the military won't do what it is ordered to do no matter what the legality of that order is.
 
I'm not trying to make it simplistic at all nor saying that every soldier would follow those orders, but those who don't would be in the minority .. even using the examples you gave. I'm saying there is precedent for US soldiers engaging innocent American citizens and following what would later be deemed as illegal orders.

I disagree. Deploying the military to round up citizens is clearly an illegal order and most would not.
 
He is quite literally saying that because I was in the Navy I would gladly have followed those orders while I was in. I know for a fact that he is wrong. It is personal. Anybody who believes that everybody in the military will just do these things is repulsive to me.

I definitely don't think he is saying that, and that's not what I was saying either.

I don't now what the military would do, but I don't have your confidence. I recently was in a situation where I was in a group with a woman hated by the right wing. Those rolling thunder guys came. They wanted to hurt us. There is no doubt. Of course they would put us in camps. They're ex-military. (or, say they are).

15 of them, caused about 10 cops (more at times) to have to stand between us all day, in the pouring rain. They stood by them not by us. There were times I wasn't sure the cops were going to be able to hold them back. They were far enough away that for all i knew the cops were slapping them on the back. A couple of the cops came by us at one point, they were real nice. I thanked them. I felt bad for them.

Then the next day I found footage of it on the net. What was actually going on over there, was that they were really in the cops' faces, with that hate again. The cops weren't so nice to them. Eventually they ordered them out, and up onto the street. They waited up there for us, again, trying to get at us when we walked back up.

And you want me to feel good putting my fate in their hands? Do you think that everybody is like you? That is what I meant by projection. I really don't think you have any idea of what goes on out there.

Yes, I think they'd put me in a camp. Any one of those rolling thunder ex-vets. (that was not my first experience with them). Yes, I think they'd beat my face in if they had the chance, then kick me in the head if I went down.

Yes, I think they'd follow an order to shoot into that crowd I was in.
 
I haven't. But I'd be fascinated by it. "Some" students did, others did not. I would assume that it was because they were not reassured that they were volunteers by the volunteers themselves? But I could be wrong.

"Some" in the military would follow those orders, but they would have to fight those who would not. In the end I believe that there are far more in the military that wouldn't round up americans and put them in camps regardless of orders than there are that would. Mostly because of my experience in the military which is personal. Some of the best people I have ever met still serve.

Oh that is a very scary study. I will try and find something for you on that.
 
Anyway, I'm glad you think that there are at least "some" good people serving our military.


Its not a matter of good versus evil damo.

No human being is purely good, and no human being is purely evil.

Human beings are a complex mix of demons and angels.


Even the most well intentioned, kindest human being on the planet, has a dark side. Which, given the right circumstances, can either be manipulated, or manifested into a horrible act.
 
He is quite literally saying that because I was in the Navy I would gladly have followed those orders while I was in. I know for a fact that he is wrong. It is personal. Anybody who believes that everybody in the military will just do these things is repulsive to me. They project onto me some of the worst things, and say that I would have done them. I was in the military....

You've taken this conversation somewhere else. I make no assumptions about what you or any INDIVIDUAL would do. We're talking about the military which is more than any individual. I was also in the military and there are good people in the military in Iraq right now doing some horrific things they personally don't agree with .. which has led to the rise of mental stress in our soldiers. Some of the PTSD is because of that very same stress. I"ve listened to their stories in the congressional office and some of it was heartbreaking.

I've listened to parents, wives, and loved ones trying to get a soldier out of going back to Iraq because of the stress of horror that they felt compelled to do in following orders. I'm saying to you that I know these stories because they came to me to tell me about them.
 
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Its not a matter of good versus evil damo.

No human being is purely good, and no human being is purely evil.

Human beings are a complex mix of demons and angels.


Even the most well intentioned, kindest human being on the planet, has a dark side. Which, given the right circumstances, can either be manipulated, or manifested into a horrible act.
The amount of groupthink it would take to get the military to round up Joe-Bob from Kentuky with his protest sign, or Darla from NYC with hers is simply beyond even the conditioning of the military.

Small groups might follow the orders but the vast majority would reject them, they would know it is directly against every reason they joined and what they swore to protect when they entered.
 
Here Damo, it was called the Milgram study:

But still the most chilling study of all is based upon experiments conducted at the psychology laboratories of Yale University under the direction of the late Dr. Stanley Milgram.

In OBEDIENCE TO AUTHORITY (Tavistock, 1974), Dr. Milgram writes, "This is, perhaps, the most fundamental lesson of our study: ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work becomes patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority. A variety of inhibitions against disobeying authority come into play and successfully keep the person in his place."

Dr. Milgram's experiments consisted of making unsuspecting university students participate in a "learning experiment". Under the orders of a scientist (Dr. Milgram), complete with white laboratory coat and surrounded by scientific-looking equipment, a student became the "teacher" whose task it was to administer steadily rising degrees of electric shocks to a "learner". The learner was unseen, but not unheard. The learner was supposedly strapped to a chair in a nearby room in front of a task to be "learned". The learner was to be "conditioned" by shocks to avoid errors ("to learn better").

Of course, the "teacher" was the real subject of Dr. Milgram's experiment. The object being to discover how far a normal person would go in carrying out orders by an authority--even though obviously injuring or killing another human being.

Unknown to the teacher, the learner was not being shocked, but merely acting the part--complete with cries, shouts, and pleas for mercy all coming from the next room. The learner was, in fact, one of Dr. Milgram's assistants.

The situation was made more realistic to the teacher by the elaborate, sophisticated-looking, supposedly "very scientific-looking" electric shock-inducing switchboard that was to be used. It had a keyboard with marked buttons ranging from "slight shock" to "danger--severe shock". And prior to the teacher administering shocks, Dr. Milgram gave each a tiny, genuine shock. Thus, they could understand what sorts of pain the learner would be receiving--but in ever-increasing doses.

Naturally, the learner intentionally made many mistakes so that the teacher would be called upon to administer numerous and steadily more severe shocks.

Therefore, while at one end of the experiment, there was a suffering victim evoking the humane urge to stop, at the other end there was the authority figure instructing the teacher to continue on at whatever cost.

The authority figure would first say "in the interests of science continue", then "please continue", then "the experiment requires that you continue", then "it is absolutely essential that you go on", and finally "you have no choice but to go on". This would proceed until supposedly fatal shocks were being administered--and when no further cries could be heard from the learner.

This experiment was repeated many times. Dr. Milgram found that ordinary young men would invariably obey what were, in effect, criminal orders to torture and murder a complete stranger--someone never even seen. He writes, "even with this low degree of expected zeal or commitment and without prior conditioning, not one participant refused ab initio to go on the moment he knew he was beginning to cause discomfort to another human being. Two-thirds of the subjects obeyed the experimenter to the last and severest shocks--so to speak against all moral imperative."

Dr. Milgram came to the horrifying conclusion that these subjects, just as the Nazi SS officers before them, behaved as "sadistic monsters" who were merely following orders. (1)

http://www.harpercollins.com.au/drstephenjuan/0405news.htm
 
You're not listening. I tell you I've seen it.
You've seen a small group. I said "most". You also have to look at the fact that these kids now serving grew up learning about those eggregious errors and would be determined not to repeat them.
 
thanks darla.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The inability of many humans to resist authority.

IMO, that's what happened at Abu Ghraib. I don't neccessarily think that all those MPs at abu ghraib were evil people. Some of them probably had wives, dogs, and sisters back home who they treated with great kindness and consideration.

But, I think that people in the chain of command - their superiors - ordered them to degrade and humiliate iraqi detainees. And most of them went along.
 
Here Damo, it was called the Milgram study:

But still the most chilling study of all is based upon experiments conducted at the psychology laboratories of Yale University under the direction of the late Dr. Stanley Milgram.

In OBEDIENCE TO AUTHORITY (Tavistock, 1974), Dr. Milgram writes, "This is, perhaps, the most fundamental lesson of our study: ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work becomes patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority. A variety of inhibitions against disobeying authority come into play and successfully keep the person in his place."

Dr. Milgram's experiments consisted of making unsuspecting university students participate in a "learning experiment". Under the orders of a scientist (Dr. Milgram), complete with white laboratory coat and surrounded by scientific-looking equipment, a student became the "teacher" whose task it was to administer steadily rising degrees of electric shocks to a "learner". The learner was unseen, but not unheard. The learner was supposedly strapped to a chair in a nearby room in front of a task to be "learned". The learner was to be "conditioned" by shocks to avoid errors ("to learn better").

Of course, the "teacher" was the real subject of Dr. Milgram's experiment. The object being to discover how far a normal person would go in carrying out orders by an authority--even though obviously injuring or killing another human being.

Unknown to the teacher, the learner was not being shocked, but merely acting the part--complete with cries, shouts, and pleas for mercy all coming from the next room. The learner was, in fact, one of Dr. Milgram's assistants.

The situation was made more realistic to the teacher by the elaborate, sophisticated-looking, supposedly "very scientific-looking" electric shock-inducing switchboard that was to be used. It had a keyboard with marked buttons ranging from "slight shock" to "danger--severe shock". And prior to the teacher administering shocks, Dr. Milgram gave each a tiny, genuine shock. Thus, they could understand what sorts of pain the learner would be receiving--but in ever-increasing doses.

Naturally, the learner intentionally made many mistakes so that the teacher would be called upon to administer numerous and steadily more severe shocks.

Therefore, while at one end of the experiment, there was a suffering victim evoking the humane urge to stop, at the other end there was the authority figure instructing the teacher to continue on at whatever cost.

The authority figure would first say "in the interests of science continue", then "please continue", then "the experiment requires that you continue", then "it is absolutely essential that you go on", and finally "you have no choice but to go on". This would proceed until supposedly fatal shocks were being administered--and when no further cries could be heard from the learner.

This experiment was repeated many times. Dr. Milgram found that ordinary young men would invariably obey what were, in effect, criminal orders to torture and murder a complete stranger--someone never even seen. He writes, "even with this low degree of expected zeal or commitment and without prior conditioning, not one participant refused ab initio to go on the moment he knew he was beginning to cause discomfort to another human being. Two-thirds of the subjects obeyed the experimenter to the last and severest shocks--so to speak against all moral imperative."

Dr. Milgram came to the horrifying conclusion that these subjects, just as the Nazi SS officers before them, behaved as "sadistic monsters" who were merely following orders. (1)

http://www.harpercollins.com.au/drstephenjuan/0405news.htm
That is freaky.
 
Um, Kbr accounced that contract, and it was for "temporary detention camps".

this is no conspiracy theory. I am so sick and tired of people with their conspiracy theory bullshit.

For Christ sakes, the company's own PR department released the information.

Whatever, stick your heads in the sand, but I will tell you all right now, (cawacko I hope you are listening too), don't ever even imply to me that I'm a tinfoil hat person.

I read the fucking news.

Yep. And the Council On Foreign Relations and other groups regularly puts out white papers describing regionalism as an intermediate path to full globalization, and then people act like you're nuts for talking about the North American Union, even as they're doing it right in front of our faces.

Then Again, Truth is part of the strategy (tm)
 
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