Was 2020 election stolen or not?

[Flash]

Buzzword fallacy.

Reality is not a buzzword. It is a record of what actually happened as opposed to those who believe wild conspiracy lies but can present no evidence to support their views.

 

[Taichiliberal]

Not true. The certification from each state (see https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college/2020) contains the signatures of all electors and the number of electoral votes given to the presidential and vice presidential candidates.

If a state has ten electoral votes and Biden and Harris each get ten we know how every elector voted for both president an vp. This is what occurs in almost every state.

In a state like Nebraska that divides its 5 electoral votes among 3 congressional districts and 2 at-large we also know how all 5 of those electors voted because we know which congressional district they represent and which are the two at-large electors.

Because many states have fines for faithless electors or can even replace them we have to know which electors did not vote as pledged in order to punish them.

"When the Electoral College electors cast their ballots on Dec. 18, will we all know whom they voted for and if any of them are “faithless”?

We’ll know. Electors are already pledged to vote for the winner of the popular vote in their state (except for Maine and Nebraska, which cast their votes proportionately), so there’s nothing secret about it. If an elector decides to be faithless and vote for someone besides who they are pledged to, he or she would have to publicly refuse to sign the pre-printed certificate. Although exact procedures vary from state to state, in general on the day electors vote they meet in public at their respective state capitols."

"OLYMPIA — One-third of Washington’s 12 Democratic presidential electors went rogue on Monday, breaking pledges to honor the state’s popular vote for Democrat Hillary Clinton.In acts of symbolic protest, three voted instead for former Secretary of State Colin Powell, while one voted for Faith Spotted Eagle, a Native American elder and activist from South Dakota. Under state law, the four electors who didn’t heed Washington’s popular vote now face fines of up to $1,000. A spokesman for Washington Secretary of State Kim Wyman confirmed her office will enforce that penalty

Three of them — Bret Chiafalo, Levi Guerra and Esther John — supported Powell, who served as former U.S. secretary of state under Republican President George W. Bush. The trio was part of the “Hamilton electors” movement that hoped to ally with GOP electors in others states in denying Trump the required 270 electoral-vote majority he needed to be sworn in as president next month.

Robert Satiacum, a member of the Puyallup Tribe, had blasted Clinton for failing to take a strong stand against the proposed Dakota Access Pipeline despite its implications for the planet. On Monday, he said his electoral vote was for “a real leader” instead of Clinton, citing Faith Spotted Eagle’s environmental activism."

I now understand your point about exit polls.



Is this the opening sentence you are talking about? "Yes, electoral votes count regardless of who they voted for. However, these votes did not mean 1) that each state did not give most of its electoral votes to the popular vote winner; 2) or that those faithless electoral votes changed who won the electoral college and became president."

If so, please point out anything about that statement that is incorrect. Again, there have been relatively few faithless electors and never have they affected a presidential outcome.

If there had never been any faithless electors and they all voted for the popular vote winner in their state it would not have changed the result of any of the 59 presidential elections.

1. You waste time and space regurgitating the SOS thinking it will gloss over my bottom line: THERE IS NO WAY TO TELL THAT JOE BLOW ELECTORAL REP VOTED FOR OR AGAINST THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE IN HIS STATE. ALL YOU ARE SEEING ARE THE GENERAL RESULTS OF THE VOTES AND CONFIRM THAT JOE BLOW WITH A FEW OTHERS DID VOTE. UNLESS YOU CAN PROVIDE A DOCUMENT THAT SAYS, "I'm Joe Blow, and although my state voted A, I voted B" you're just speculating ... unless you have a situation that you highlighted, which is the EXCEPTION and NOT the rule across the 50 states.

And again, why should the electors be allowed to usurp the will of the people? THAT IS THE CRUX OF THE MATTER! That is why the electoral system should be overhauled or abandoned.


2. I am responding to the last paragraph of your previous statement that started with this sentence, "...The electoral college was never intended to reflect a majority of individuals because the founders opposed majority rule.". I provided a link to historical analysis that proves you wrong on this count. Period. All the dancing and dodging and smoke blowing and reiteration of moot points won't change that.

Bottom line: the circumstances that provided the justification for creation of the electoral college no longer exists. Period. I've pointed that out at least twice in our exchange. The Two Party system that makes up our gov't find it most advantageous from time to time....and those in power hate to give it up or lend credence to anything that may curtail that power.

We pretty much covered everything on this aspect regarding the 2020 election, we've each made our case. That's it.

 

[Flash]

And again, why should the electors be allowed to usurp the will of the people? THAT IS THE CRUX OF THE MATTER! That is why the electoral system should be overhauled or abandoned.

Electors do not thwart the will of the people. Unless those faithless electors take away enough electoral votes from the popular vote winner to change the election results the will of the people (popular vote winner) still wins the electoral vote and the presidency.


And, that has never happened.

"...The electoral college was never intended to reflect a majority of individuals because the founders opposed majority rule.". I provided a link to historical analysis that proves you wrong on this count.

If you think that the founders wanted popular vote and majority rule your historical analysis is wrong. They made no provision for popular votes in the Constitution--that was implemented by the states. They said letting the people choose the president is like a blind man choosing colors.

You need to read Federalist #10 by the "father of the Constitution" to understand why he objected to majority rule and why he chose a republic rather than a democracy to prevent it.

 

[Into the Night]

The governor of Georgia does not have authority to choose the electors. Only the legislature does.

Yes it does. See Article II of the Constitution of the United States.

You produced random shit. The Constitution, and ONLY the Constitution is the authoritative reference of the Constitution.

Never did. The executive branch of Georgia does not have that authority.

The Associated Press is not an authoritative reference of the Constitution. False authority fallacy.

Counting the same fake ballots again means nothing.

The Wall Street Journal is not an authoritative reference of the Constitution.

There were no electors from Georgia.

Congress does not have authority to choose electors for Georgia.

The governor does not have the authority to prevent a session of a State legislature.

Such a law is unconstitutional.

What electors?

You did.

You did it again.

You did it again. Congress does not have authority to choose the electors for any State.[/Q
What an insane list of crazy things to say. Circular logic and crazy shit listed one after another. One of my favs is the constitution is the authority on the constitution. That is akin to defending the bible by using the bible as an authority. It makes no sense. The Supremes function is interpreting it. It also is constantly being interpreted by Congress. https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/R44729.html

The Supreme Court does not have authority to interpret the Constitution. See Article III. Neither does Congress. See Article I. Only the owners of the Constitution of the United States, the States themselves, have the authority to interpret it, change it, or destroy it completely and abolish the federal government.
The ONLY authoritative reference of the Constitution of the United States is the Constitution of the United States.

 

[Into the Night]

People are free to think what they want but I believe you truly are a paranoid schizophrenic and probably other disorders.

Psychoquackery. Insult fallacies.

The fact you are declaring my views about the Constitution

I didn't. YOU did.

as facts which you cannot possibly know proves you are either a bullshitter or insane...maybe a little of both.

Insult fallacy. Psychoquackery.

 

[Into the Night]

Sure they did.

Nope. Neither Georgia nor Arizona chose electors.

The electors are the ones who signed the documents that certified the electoral votes on December 14

The legislature didn't choose them. Perjury.

from those states

The legislature didn't choose them. Perjury.

and that were counted by Congress on January 6.

Congress does not choose the electors for a State.

They are now included in the total 538 total electors officially counted for the election results.

Congress does not choose the electors for a State.

You are not reading again.

I am reading. You are still trying to make Congress the supreme authority over the election. They do not choose the electors for a State.

I said Congress accepted and counted the electoral votes certified by the states.

Congress does not choose the electors for a State.

I did not say Congress chose those electors.

Yes you did. You just did it again.

 

[Into the Night]

Reality is not a buzzword.

Then define it. Until you do, it's just a buzzword. Let's see you try to define it.

It is a record of what actually happened

Circular argument fallacy. There is no 'record of what actually happened'. Georgia and Arizona never chose it's electors.

as opposed to those who believe wild conspiracy lies

The Democrat party is a conspiracy. It lies all the time. Apparently you believe them.

but can present no evidence to support their views.

Already have. RQAA. You can't wish the evidence away, dude.

 

[Into the Night]

1. You waste time and space regurgitating the SOS thinking it will gloss over my bottom line: THERE IS NO WAY TO TELL THAT JOE BLOW ELECTORAL REP VOTED FOR OR AGAINST THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE IN HIS STATE. ALL YOU ARE SEEING ARE THE GENERAL RESULTS OF THE VOTES AND CONFIRM THAT JOE BLOW WITH A FEW OTHERS DID VOTE. UNLESS YOU CAN PROVIDE A DOCUMENT THAT SAYS, "I'm Joe Blow, and although my state voted A, I voted B" you're just speculating ... unless you have a situation that you highlighted, which is the EXCEPTION and NOT the rule across the 50 states.

And again, why should the electors be allowed to usurp the will of the people? THAT IS THE CRUX OF THE MATTER! That is why the electoral system should be overhauled or abandoned.


2. I am responding to the last paragraph of your previous statement that started with this sentence, "...The electoral college was never intended to reflect a majority of individuals because the founders opposed majority rule.". I provided a link to historical analysis that proves you wrong on this count. Period. All the dancing and dodging and smoke blowing and reiteration of moot points won't change that.

Bottom line: the circumstances that provided the justification for creation of the electoral college no longer exists. Period. I've pointed that out at least twice in our exchange. The Two Party system that makes up our gov't find it most advantageous from time to time....and those in power hate to give it up or lend credence to anything that may curtail that power.

We pretty much covered everything on this aspect regarding the 2020 election, we've each made our case. That's it.

So you do not respect the sovereignty of a State. There are more than two parties in the United States.

 

[Into the Night]

Electors do not thwart the will of the people. Unless those faithless electors take away enough electoral votes from the popular vote winner to change the election results the will of the people (popular vote winner) still wins the electoral vote and the presidency.


And, that has never happened.



If you think that the founders wanted popular vote and majority rule your historical analysis is wrong. They made no provision for popular votes in the Constitution--that was implemented by the states. They said letting the people choose the president is like a blind man choosing colors.

You need to read Federalist #10 by the "father of the Constitution" to understand why he objected to majority rule and why he chose a republic rather than a democracy to prevent it.

Democracies have no constitution.

 

[Jarod]

I'm not the one who says they believe the election was stolen, but then was too chickenshit to go to DC to do anything about it.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

THIS!

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I didn't. YOU did..

If that was true, you could prove it. If you're just the wackadoodle I believe you to be, you'll evade with your usual style.

 

[Flash]

The legislature didn't choose them. Perjury.

The Constitution says the state legislatures appoint electors in the manner those states dictate:

"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors,"

The manner the legislatures have directed is that the popular vote of the state elects the slate of electors who shall cast their ballots for the president (or some variation thereof). State law does not say the legislatures appoint electors directly but in the manner directed by state law.
Georgia, and every other state, followed this procedure. In no state did the legislature actually choose the electors except as they determined by state law.

States have the power to select electors instead of the voters, but none chose to do so in 2020.

Congress does not choose the electors for a State.

No, but they accept the electors certified by each state and count them.

"The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed;

I am reading. You are still trying to make Congress the supreme authority over the election. They do not choose the electors for a State.

Not at all. They have the power to open and accept the electoral votes from the states.

Giving Congress the supreme authority over the election is what Trump tied to do when he said Pence could reject the electoral votes which is not a power the Constitution gives the VP.

 

[Flash]

Democracies have no constitution.

The U.S. would have a constitution if Madison had chosen to create a democracy rather than a republic (although it would have been rejected by the constitutional convention).

New England towns have city charters providing for New England town meetings which is a type of direct democracy.

 

[Flash]

Georgia and Arizona never chose it's electors.

Is this a reality? Define it.

Why is the GA and AZ electoral vote included in the electoral vote total for 2020?

 

[Into the Night]

If that was true, you could prove it. If you're just the wackadoodle I believe you to be, you'll evade with your usual style.

RQAA. I already provided references to the evidence. You can't make it go away by wishing, dude.

 

[Into the Night]

The Constitution says the state legislatures appoint electors in the manner those states dictate:

"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors,"

The manner the legislatures have directed is that the popular vote of the state elects the slate of electors who shall cast their ballots for the president (or some variation thereof). State law does not say the legislatures appoint electors directly but in the manner directed by state law.
Georgia, and every other state, followed this procedure. In no state did the legislature actually choose the electors except as they determined by state law.

Only the legislature of a State may choose it's electors.

States have the power to select electors instead of the voters, but none chose to do so in 2020.

Nothing has changed Article II. The legislatures choose the electors.

No, but they accept the electors certified by each state and count them.

Congress can't choose the electors for a State.

"The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed;

Congress cannot choose the electors for a State.

Not at all. They have the power to open and accept the electoral votes from the states.

Georgia and Arizona never chose electors.

Giving Congress the supreme authority over the election is what Trump tied to do

No. It is what YOU are trying to do.

when he said Pence could reject the electoral votes

What electoral votes?

which is not a power the Constitution gives the VP.

What electoral votes?

 

[Into the Night]

The U.S. would have a constitution if Madison had chosen to create a democracy rather than a republic

Democracies have no constitution.

(although it would have been rejected by the constitutional convention).

Irrelevant.

New England towns have city charters providing for New England town meetings which is a type of direct democracy.

That's a republic, not a democracy. City charters are a constitution. Democracies have no constitution.

 

[Into the Night]

Is this a reality? Define it.

I am not going to define 'reality' for you, dude. You have to do that yourself. Let's see if you can do it.

Why is the GA and AZ electoral vote included in the electoral vote total for 2020?

What electoral vote?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

RQAA. I already provided references to the evidence. You can't make it go away by wishing, dude.

Hey, Nutjob! If you weren't so fucking insane in your little magical world you'd recognize that you haven't posted a shred of evidence proving this:

You're a fucking liar. You do not recognize the Constitution of the United States nor any State constitution.

You are severely mentally ill, INT/IBDa/gfm. I hope you're under someone's care. If not, then you are a danger to society since a nutty fuckwad like you could explode at any minute and kill innocent people.

Everything you post here and on your forum is being tracked. Once you cross the line, that's it for you. You are being watched so please take care.

 

[Nordberg]

The president is elected by the electoral vote. Those votes are apportioned among the states by the FEDERAL government according to a FEDERAL Census. The FEDERAL government collects the certified electoral votes from each state. Then they hold a final certification on 1-6 when they call out each state's total EV in alphabetical order.