What if Obamacare is voted down by the Supreme Court?

General Burnside said:
How about this as a compromise. When the whole law is thrown out, let's pass a mandate that requires States to guarantee universal access to health coverage by 2020. Each State would have to figure out how to make that happen. Some would go single-payer, others would go for a market solution. Each would ultimately determine what works best for them.
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this would be awesome. but it will never happen. state sovereignty is virtually dead. A californian is responsible for a snowbird in florida.
 
I understand that there is a constitutional question.

The reason I want a mandate is because there already is a defacto one, and by not making it official we are paying extra for it.

If someone goes to a hospital with a serious illness, they are treated. Who do you belive pays for that? A) The tax payers. B) The Insurance Companies C) The insured via there premiums. D) All of the above.

So here is the deal, make everyone do the responsable thing or make them pay extra in taxes because of the extra cost they are imposing on the taxpayers.
 
Jarod said:
I understand that there is a constitutional question.

The reason I want a mandate is because there already is a defacto one, and by not making it official we are paying extra for it.

If someone goes to a hospital with a serious illness, they are treated. Who do you belive pays for that? A) The tax payers. B) The Insurance Companies C) The insured via there premiums. D) All of the above.

So here is the deal, make everyone do the responsable thing or make them pay extra in taxes because of the extra cost they are imposing on the taxpayers.
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Tell us Jarod... by that standard do you support making the obese pay extra in taxes because of the extra cost they are imposing on the rest of us?
 
Derp Derp said:
Name me just one other nation with a universal health insurance mandate that has rampantly gone around requiring it's citizens to purchase a wide range of goods and services at the governments dictates? Name one. I'll even make it easier for you. Name one nation with a universal health care mandate that requires it's citizens to purchase any goods and services other than health and auto insurance? Name just one!

Also, answer me this. Tell me how many modern industrialized nations that have implemented a universal mandate have rescinded or discarded it and gone back to a market driven systems? Name just one.
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You're asking the tough questions. You'll never get an answer. :rofl:
 
Superfreak said:
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Tell us Jarod... by that standard do you support making the obese pay extra in taxes because of the extra cost they are imposing on the rest of us?
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They could be fined so much per pound. Say, a dollar per pound/per month over ideal weight. 20 pounds overweight = $20/mth. = $240/yr. :rofl:
 
Cynic said:
this would be awesome. but it will never happen. state sovereignty is virtually dead. A californian is responsible for a snowbird in florida.
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Do you feel mandatory care of people who go to the emergency room is legal, constitutional? Are you one of those who believes that if you can't pay you should not receive care?

Why do healthy young males buy health insurance?
 
apple0154 said:
They could be fined so much per pound. Say, a dollar per pound/per month over ideal weight. 20 pounds overweight = $20/mth. = $240/yr. :rofl:
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Or they could simply pay the true costs of their health care. Which would likely be a good motivator for them to get in shape.
 
Rana said:
Do you feel mandatory care of people who go to the emergency room is legal, constitutional? Are you one of those who believes that if you can't pay you should not receive care?

Why do healthy young males buy health insurance?
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For catastrophic care coverage.
 
apple0154 said:
They could be fined so much per pound. Say, a dollar per pound/per month over ideal weight. 20 pounds overweight = $20/mth. = $240/yr. :rofl:
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SF is hung up on fat people, what would he do about people who are born with problems, like cystic fibrosis? Or what about the young cancer patients? What about people like Cheney who have hereditary illnesses? Not all illnesses are caused by obesity. My friend weighs much more than I but does not suffer from high cholesterol or high blood pressure, her mother weighs over three hundred pounds and arthritis is her only ailment. Obesity can cause illness, but not always. My dad has never been overweight but has suffered from high cholesterol most of his adult life, and smoked until he was 80, but my mother who ever smoked, never drank, has more medical problems than my dad. I have known people who were very healthy, not overweight, did all the right things and died of heart attacks.
 
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Rana said:
SF is hung up on fat people, what would he do about people who are born with problems, like cystic fibrosis? Or what about the young cancer patients? What about people like Cheney who have hereditary illnesses? Not all illnesses are caused by obesity. My friend weighs much more than I but does not suffer from high cholesterol or high blood pressure, her mother weighs over three hundred pounds and arthritis is her only ailment. Obesity can cause illness, but not always. My dad has never been overweight but has suffered from high cholesterol most of his adult life, and smoked until he was 80, but my mother who ever smoked, never drank, has more medical problems than my dad. I have known people who were very healthy, not overweight, did all the right things and died of heart attacks.
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110824131848.htm
 
Here are some things that I do know, from a personal viewpoint. I know that had I been "forced" to pay for insurance the first 15 years of my working life as a teacher, I would not be where I am now. I know I would not have the house that will be paid for in a couple of years, I know I would have been much more limited on the activities and interests I have pursued, I know that I would have felt that I couldn't have afforded to get married and have children at 35, which was cutting it close as it is. I chose not to buy insurance until I was 37 all from a financial standpoint and what would be best for me financially during the time I started working a real job when I was 21. I worry about something being "mandated" and I shudder to think of where I'd be if it were mandated back in 1987 when I started working.

I am all for some sort of health care system and am all for eliminating rejection because of "pre-existing conditions." I don't know if the solution is going to have to come from a re-working of the medicare/medicaid part of what currently exists or where it is going to have to come from I just know that I am in favor of it. I really don't think I have ever seen anyone who needed care who wasn't cared for. I have seen the cost of prolonged illness decimate families financially. This is another of those hard problems that needs to be dealt with. It seems the democrats at least have tried to deal with the problem, even if in such a haphazard manner that it is probably going to have to be re-vamped. For the record, I think the madate portion will get shot down by the SC and I also think that will destroy how the law would work....and then back to the drawing board. Just my opinion.
 
Rana said:
SF is hung up on fat people
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I am not hung up on them Rana... I am pointing out the people that are causing health care costs to rise substantially that can easily resolve their issues. Those with Cancer or Cystic fibrosis etc... can and should be taken care of. But there is no reason to lump everyone into a government plan to do so.

Not all illnesses are caused by obesity.
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and NO ONE stated anything of the kind.

My friend weighs much more than I but does not suffer from high cholesterol or high blood pressure, her mother weighs over three hundred pounds and arthritis is her only ailment. Obesity can cause illness, but not always.
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Are you done creating straw men? Again, no one stated that every obese person would get sick or need extra health care. But the odds are significantly increased the more obese you become. That is a fact.

My dad has never been overweight but has suffered from high cholesterol most of his adult life, and smoked until he was 80, but my mother who ever smoked, never drank, has more medical problems than my dad. I have known people who were very healthy, not overweight, did all the right things and died of heart attacks.
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LMAO... I guess using such data we should just ignore the overall statistics. Right?
 
Rana said:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110824131848.htm
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http://www.webmd.com/cholesterol-management/obesity-health-risks

The health problems associated with obesity are numerous. Obesity is not just a cosmetic problem. It's a health hazard. Someone who is 40% overweight is twice as likely to die prematurely as is a normal-weight person. This is because obesity has been linked to several serious medical conditions, including:

Heart disease and stroke.
High blood pressure.
Diabetes.
Cancer.
Gallbladder disease and gallstones.
Osteoarthritis.
Gout.
Breathing problems, such as sleep apnea (when a person stops breathing for a short time during sleep) and asthma.

Doctors agree that the more overweight a person is, the more likely he or she is to have health problems. People who are overweight or obese are at increased risk for chronic disease compared to normal-weight individuals People who are overweight or obese and can gain significant health benefits from losing weight. A person is considered obese if he or she weighs at least 20% more than the maximum healthy weight for his or her height. Those at greatest risks for overweight/obesity related conditions include:
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Again Rana... no one is suggesting that ALL obese people will get sick or that ALL obese people will develop the same conditions.
 
leaningright said:
Here are some things that I do know, from a personal viewpoint. I know that had I been "forced" to pay for insurance the first 15 years of my working life as a teacher, I would not be where I am now. I know I would not have the house that will be paid for in a couple of years, I know I would have been much more limited on the activities and interests I have pursued, I know that I would have felt that I couldn't have afforded to get married and have children at 35, which was cutting it close as it is. I chose not to buy insurance until I was 37 all from a financial standpoint and what would be best for me financially during the time I started working a real job when I was 21. I worry about something being "mandated" and I shudder to think of where I'd be if it were mandated back in 1987 when I started working.

I am all for some sort of health care system and am all for eliminating rejection because of "pre-existing conditions." I don't know if the solution is going to have to come from a re-working of the medicare/medicaid part of what currently exists or where it is going to have to come from I just know that I am in favor of it. I really don't think I have ever seen anyone who needed care who wasn't cared for. I have seen the cost of prolonged illness decimate families financially. This is another of those hard problems that needs to be dealt with. It seems the democrats at least have tried to deal with the problem, even if in such a haphazard manner that it is probably going to have to be re-vamped. For the record, I think the madate portion will get shot down by the SC and I also think that will destroy how the law would work....and then back to the drawing board. Just my opinion.
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You were fortunate you did not get ill or have an accident, that would have set you back, also. See, it is the invincibility factor, most young people don't see themselves ever getting sick or having an accident, but when they do wouldn't it be better for them financially if they did have healthcare? Affordable insurance can be a reality.

You have your home now, but without insurance now, if you or your wife were to become ill what would happen to your home, your savings account? When you retire will you go on Medicare or will you buy private insurance and why would you do so?
 
Rana said:
You were fortunate you did not get ill or have an accident, that would have set you back, also. See, it is the invincibility factor, most young people don't see themselves ever getting sick or having an accident, but when they do wouldn't it be better for them financially if they did have healthcare? Affordable insurance can be a reality.

You have your home now, but without insurance now, if you or your wife were to become ill what would happen to your home, your savings account? When you retire will you go on Medicare or will you buy private insurance and why would you do so?
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For me it was a risk factor. You are correct that I would have been in trouble had I become seriously ill or had an accident during that time. I did have a bout of Tuleremia which put me in the hospital for 5 days. I had to pay that out over a several month period....most hospitals will let you do that. But I was willing to take the risk that my health would hold out.

We do have insurance now....all kinds of insurance. Car, house, health, death...you know, all the insurances people buy when they start to realize they're getting older. ;) Notice I said I started purchasing health insurance when I was 37. When I retire I will continue to keep the insurance that I purchase through my job unless by then they give me the option of shopping around. I really hope they do because the state insurance that I pay for is pretty high, IMO. And yes, when I am old enough and if it is still around I'll sign up on whatever is available through the government as well. I really think things have worked out OK for me but you are right, I did take a risk when I was younger. But as it has worked out I don't think I would change how I did it.
 
Cynic said:
if you actually look at the stats for hospital costs of a healthy male in their 20's, it's staggeringly non-existent. For all intents and purposes, there are significant areas of our society that don't use healthcare. Why the FUCK should I be forced to subsidize the great unwashed masses?

and we already have medicare for old people so don't use the whole "you'll be old one day so you should still pay in now"
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I was talking about suing for the assets of uninsured drivers.
 
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