What is hell?

[Magats_Love_NHB]

Hell is a made-up place to scare and control people into believing a facetious religion.

 

[Daylight63]

I think all animals are born with instincts. Some of them could be viewed as an expression of morality, even though the animal doesn't think of it that way.

That's my thinking. We KNOW the brain (even the human brain) is loaded up with a LOT of instincts that are there to ensure survival of the creature. Humans are literally no different from any other social animal in that.

The key here is that humans also seem to have things like a "theory of mind" that other animals lack. I also assume that humans differ in our ability to conceive of alternate routes of behavior so we ultimately feel like we have to "choose" our actions when, the science is showing that often our brains form an action BEFORE conscious decisions are made by the brain. So in a sense we are all driven by our physical brain.

The added bonus for us is that we can choose to subvert those instincts. To that end we as an animal use our language skills to develop concepts for why we should or should not subvert instinctive activities which is what we end up calling "MORALITY".

All the animals have a "morality" after a fashion, just not conscious like we do. But even our morality is usually nothing more than codification of the instinct (eg "murder is bad" or "filial piety is good").



The reason there are some on here who hate that concept is the same reason that many of our fellow citizens who are hyper-religious dislike it: it puts humanity right smack dab in the middle of "animalia" and a LOT of people really hate the idea that they are animals. That we all are animals.

 

[Daylight63]

Hell is a made-up place to scare and control people into believing a facetious religion.

Yes! It is a "control lever". So much of religion is the human desire to control others. Hell is the fast track for the credulous.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

You can't blame your socks on anybody else, Sybil.

The only socks I need are the one on my feet, son. I have no need for sock puppets like schizos and very weak-willed people.

Why do you think people use sock puppets, son?

 

[Cypress]

You seem to be claiming that actions being evolutionarily advantageous, like allowing the weak member of the litter to die, can't be viewed as immoral. I definitely don't agree with that. Buy that logic, we can't say that slavery is wrong today because it was once practice to the benefit of some societies.

Nothing in what I'm saying has any connection to religion. Religion is not a source of morality.

What I'm saying is that, to the degree that literally anything in the universe matters, can be viewed as good or bad or can be viewed as right or wrong, it is only possible because of consciousness. Without consciousness, morality does not exist because there is no suffering, pain, etc.

In other words, my position is solely scientific.

There is no known materialistic scientific explanation of Oskar Schindler or Georgio Perlasca

Just lifting your finger and pointing to consciousness is not a scientific explanation. We don't even understand what consciousness is, so we can't point to it as a supposedly scientific explanation of morality. Science currently has no real accepted explanation for conscience or morality, and it's possible we never will.

There isn't even agreement on whether there is absolute right and wrong.

Every example you cited, like protecting children or not harming them, is done out of self interest according to evolutionary biology. Self interest is not morality.


You grew up in a society that was immersed for two thousand years in a Judeo-Christian cultural ethos. You couldn't avoid it. Of course many of your ideas about morality largely came from Christianity, even though you don't realize it. The Decalogue, the Sermon on the Mount, the parable of the good Samaritan absolutely permeate our cultural memory and cultural milieu.

Even the preeminent atheist Richard Dawkins admits he is influenced by a Christian cultural ethos.

Anyone who has studied ancient history knows the moral ethos of the New Testament was radical for the time. They weren't just principles based on common sense that had always been practiced since time immemorial. It only seems like common sense now because we have been percolating in them for 2000 years.

 

[Uncensored2008]

This is one of the most uninformed posts I've seen in a while. How did you do it? How could you type out a complete sentence and be wrong with every single word?

It's kind of a miracle. But I bet you are just the right level of stupid to be able to achieve it.

What would you suggest for infidels who fail to bow to your religion? Should Christian have their children forcibly removed so that you can teach them to believe as you do, in Atheism?

Atheism is as aggressive as Islam with forced conversion.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Not sure why you can't understand my posts. Maybe the words are too large. Oh well. I'll keep trying. You seem like maybe you have had some education. So maybe you're not a total waste of time.

$20 says it's because your posts are pedestrian, more than a little wacky and trolling to the point of stalking, Perry.

 

[Cypress]

Codes get corrupted everywhere that they exist,
so that would probably apply to genetic codes as well.

If it's physically possible to be inflicted with corrupted codes, it IS going to happen.

As for Judeo-Christian ethic, and here I would include the third and newest semitic religion, Islam,
they are not the only religions in the world which don't advocate the abuse of children, I would guess.

In any case, life is easier to understand once one concludes that everything is random.
Even if the theory is completely wrong, holding it can be helpful.
Otherwise, to me , at least, NOTHING makes sense.

I have a theory about the semitic faiths, by the way.

Judaism is the least offensive because its advent came when mankind was the least evolved.
Jewish beliefs may actually be organic.

Embracing Christianity is harder to defend because humanity was a bit more evolved by then.

Embracing Islam in the relatively modern era when it arrived
is completely impossible to defend.

Admittedly, no study went into this. It simply occurred to me.

But it's probably all random anyway.

Yes, sociopaths, serial murderers, and paranoid schizophrenics are deviants that have something wrong with the biology and chemistry underlying their brains.

I don't have a ranking of good religions and bad religions.

Randomness doesn't make sense to me. Everywhere we look on Earth or in the universe we see rational organization, pattern, mathematical order, and nobody really knows why that is.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Yes, sociopaths, serial murderers, and paranoid schizophrenics are deviants that have something wrong with the biology and chemistry underlying their brains.

I don't have a ranking of good religions and bad religions.

Randomness doesn't make sense to me. Everywhere we look on Earth or in the universe we see rational organization, pattern, mathematical order, and nobody really knows why that is.

Agreed with one exception. From the Big Bang onward, the Universe is like breaking racked billiard balls. Once hit, the laws of nature take over in a very predictable way. The only thing that would change that and turn it more random is life. A cat jumps on the table or someone puts their hand to block a ball.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed with one exception. From the Big Bang onward, the Universe is like breaking racked billiard balls. Once hit, the laws of nature take over in a very predictable way. The only thing that would change that and turn it more random is life. A cat jumps on the table or someone puts their hand to block a ball.

Thanks for your input.

I like your analogy of the expansion of the universe following a predictable mathematical pattern m

I'm not sure life is increasing randomness if one looks at it through the prism of physics.

The way understand it is that life is a low entropy feature of the universe, so life is a more orderly and less random attribute of the cosmos. You couldn't have life in a thoroughly mixed high entropy condition. So in a certain sense, life is a more orderly attribute of the overall equilibrium of the universe.

Maybe what you're taking about is the willful actions of a conscious being.

 

[ZenMode]

Paradox. Irrational. You don't believe in Satan.

Hence the use of the word "figuratively". Did any of your parents' kids survive?

Cats have instincts like any animal. They nurture their young, and lions work as a group, coordinating their hunting.
By your own definition, these are 'morals'. Other cats are solitary, but the young ones stay with the mother until it learns to hunt on it's own, which can take considerable time.

I have neither the time nor the crayons to explain this to you.

 

[ZenMode]

There is no known materialistic scientific explanation of Oskar Schindler or Georgio Perlasca

Just lifting your finger and pointing to consciousness is not a scientific explanation. We don't even understand what consciousness is, so we can't point to it as a supposedly scientific explanation of morality. Science currently has no real accepted explanation for conscience or morality, and it's possible we never will.

There isn't even agreement on whether there is absolute right and wrong.

I think there is and it's based on the positive or negative experience experience of conscious creatures.

Every example you cited, like protecting children or not harming them, is done out of self interest according to evolutionary biology. Self interest is not morality.

Correct, but that doesn't mean that we, as humans who understand human suffering, can't say that it is immoral to not take care of your offspring, right? We can also say that it is immoral to kill off the weakest, despite it being acceptable to other species of animals who don't understand morality.

You grew up in a society that was immersed for two thousand years in a Judeo-Christian cultural ethos. You couldn't avoid it. Of course many of your ideas about morality largely came from Christianity, even though you don't realize it. The Decalogue, the Sermon on the Mount, the parable of the good Samaritan absolutely permeate our cultural memory and cultural milieu.

All morality originated with man. There's no sky wizard giving moral sirection.

Even the preeminent atheist Richard Dawkins admits he is influenced by a Christian cultural ethos.

Sure, so was I, but Christs are just people. Muslims are just people. If you grew up in another country, you'd probably have different views of morality because of culture, not because a different sky wizard had different rules.

 

[Into the Night]

What would you suggest for infidels who fail to bow to your religion? Should Christian have their children forcibly removed so that you can teach them to believe as you do, in Atheism?

Atheism is as aggressive as Islam with forced conversion.

By 'atheism' I assume you mean the Church of No God, a fundamentalist style religion. Interesting observation. There's some truth to it!

Atheism is not a religion. It does not care whether any god or gods exist or not.
Science is atheistic. It simply doesn't care whether any god or gods exist or not.
Mathematics is atheistic.
Logic is atheistic.

Atheism stems from 'theism', meaning religion, with the prefix 'a-', meaning 'not' or 'null'.

The Church of No God is a fundamentalist style religion. It tries to prove that no god exists. This is a circular argument, and it is not possible to prove whether any god or gods exist or not. Because the Church of No God tries to prove a circular argument, it routinely commits the circular argument fallacy. This is what a fundamentalist does.

The circular argument by itself is not a fallacy. The other name for the circular argument is the Argument of Faith. Trying to PROVE a circular argument TRUE or FALSE is the fallacy. You cannot prove any circular argument TRUE or FALSE.

 

[Into the Night]

Agreed with one exception. From the Big Bang onward, the Universe is like breaking racked billiard balls. Once hit, the laws of nature take over in a very predictable way. The only thing that would change that and turn it more random is life. A cat jumps on the table or someone puts their hand to block a ball.

Throw the dice.

 

[Into the Night]

The only socks I need are the one on my feet, son. I have no need for sock puppets like schizos and very weak-willed people.

Why do you think people use sock puppets, son?

You can't blame your socks on anybody else, Sybil.

 

[Into the Night]

Thanks for your input.

I like your analogy of the expansion of the universe following a predictable mathematical pattern m

I'm not sure life is increasing randomness if one looks at it through the prism of physics.

What is 'expanding'????

The Universe has no known boundaries!

 

[Into the Night]

Hence the use of the word "figuratively". Did any of your parents' kids survive?I have neither the time nor the crayons to explain this to you.

Your word games won't work, Void. The use of the word 'figuratively' changes nothing. You are still locked in your paradox.

 

[Into the Night]

I think there is and it's based on the positive or negative experience experience of conscious creatures.Correct, but that doesn't mean that we, as humans who understand human suffering, can't say that it is immoral to not take care of your offspring, right? We can also say that it is immoral to kill off the weakest, despite it being acceptable to other species of animals who don't understand morality.
All morality originated with man. There's no sky wizard giving moral sirection.


Sure, so was I, but Christs are just people. Muslims are just people. If you grew up in another country, you'd probably have different views of morality because of culture, not because a different sky wizard had different rules.

Ever hear of 'Every Man for Himself'?

 

[Neoclitorus]

So I was correct that concepts of hell did not originate with Christianity,

right.

christianity is about jesus's actual teachings, not the the demented fear porn blatherings of Medieval syphilitic pederast church fathers.


and there's no hell in buddhism.

you get everything wrong.

 

[Neoclitorus]

Agreed! In fact that is PRECISELY what I yearn for from death. Just not existing.

will you be angry if I call you a nihilist?