What Next With NK?

[AnyOldIron]

I've already stated an answer to that question, not reading it and pretending that I haven't doesn't make it any less so. This is a copout. Where is your own responsibility?

My responsibility for what?

I missed your reply.

My point is that Bush declared that he was taking the lead on the 'axis of evil' and you are whining because I am asking what Bush is doing with that lead.

I didn't nominate Bush to take the lead, he volunteered himself.

 

[Damocles]

I've already stated an answer to that question, not reading it and pretending that I haven't doesn't make it any less so. This is a copout. Where is your own responsibility?

My responsibility for what?

I missed your reply.

My point is that Bush declared that he was taking the lead on the 'axis of evil' and you are whining because I am asking what Bush is doing with that lead.

I didn't nominate Bush to take the lead, he volunteered himself.

And my answer was that he has the leverage necessary if he wishes to use it. Then I asked, instead of standing and following why isn't the rest of the word taking the lead?

It is disingenuous to say that somebody is doing something wrong, then sit there and beg them to do something about it! You have the EU, they are a power, what are they doing? You have your own nation, what are they doing?

If the rest of the world is willing to stand back and beg the US to do something, then don't get all upset when it isn't what you want done!

 

[AnyOldIron]

I don't know your work arrangements Damo, but imagine you are working for a firm and a new account comes in and you volunteer to be lead manager of the account.

Then imagine something goes really badly with that account.

When people ask you, as lead manager for the account, what you are doing in relation to that, would you look around at the other managers and ask why they aren't taking responsibility for it?

 

[AnyOldIron]

And my answer was that he has the leverage necessary if he wishes to use it.

And my question was.... What is that leverage?

Then I asked, instead of standing and following why isn't the rest of the word taking the lead?

See my above....

 

[Damocles]

No, but if I were in the other position, where I thought the lead was screwing it up I would certainly offer more solutions and attempt to take over the account myself.

 

[Damocles]

And my answer was that he has the leverage necessary if he wishes to use it.

And my question was.... What is that leverage?

Then I asked, instead of standing and following why isn't the rest of the word taking the lead?

See my above....

I answered that. Read the previous posts if you actually want to know what my answer was.

As for the "see my above": see also my above.

 

[OrnotBitwise]

My point in this thread is how all these other nations that could be doing as you suggest are instead whining in their best sanctimonious voices about, "What are you going to doooooooooo?"

-- emphasis added, O.B.

What nations? Who is it, do you think, that is raising their sanctimonious voices in criticism of the United States? I must admit that I am uninformed of any such criticism.

 

[AnyOldIron]

No, but if I were in the other position, where I thought the lead was screwing it up I would certainly offer more solutions and attempt to take over the account myself.

The solutions have been analysed and offered as I mentioned above.

The best option is to encourage China to pull the plug on the regime, use the UN to provide refugee support for the inevitable flood and provide China with suitable compensation.

The question is... does the lead on this issue have the credibility to persuade the Chinese to act at all....

 

[Damocles]

What nations? Who is it, do you think, that is raising their sanctimonious voices in criticism of the United States? I must admit that I am uninformed of any such criticism.

Currently? Supposedly, implied constantly in about a million other threads I have read, every nation out there thinks we are run by "cowboys" ruining everything.

I'm just wondering where those people who are so much smarter and wiser and better at it all went to? I know! They are all standing by the sidelines saying, "What are you going to doooooooo?" rather than even attempting to take a lead.

I fully understand the US will have to deal with this, I'm just clearing away the pretense here. We can pretend that the US suddenly doesn't have any leverage or we can look at reality and see that over half of China's exports go where?

If forcing China to bend to the West is the only solution, as somebody suggested in this thread, then the US certainly has the leverage to make that happen.

 

[Damocles]

No, but if I were in the other position, where I thought the lead was screwing it up I would certainly offer more solutions and attempt to take over the account myself.

The solutions have been analysed and offered as I mentioned above.

The best option is to encourage China to pull the plug on the regime, use the UN to provide refugee support for the inevitable flood and provide China with suitable compensation.

The question is... does the lead on this issue have the credibility to persuade the Chinese to act at all....

I already answered that, and now have repeated it. The question is, will you actually read it or just keep repeating a question already answered?

And standing by the sidelines and letting another lead rather than attempting to take the lead is exactly what I said y'all were doing. If you keep that up you have no recourse other than to be happy with what we end up doing as no other option will be available.

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Currently? Supposedly, implied constantly in about a million other threads I have read, every nation out there thinks we are run by "cowboys" ruining everything.

I'm just wondering where those people who are so much smarter and wiser and better at it all went to? I know! They are all standing by the sidelines saying, "What are you going to doooooooo?" rather than even attempting to take a lead.

I fully understand the US will have to deal with this, I'm just clearing away the pretense here. We can pretend that the US suddenly doesn't have any leverage or we can look at reality and see that over half of China's exports go where?

If forcing China to bend to the West is the only solution, as somebody suggested in this thread, then the US certainly has the leverage to make that happen.

Excuse me? You honestly think that Dubya is going to *let* any other nation take "the lead" in anlything? Get real. Bush & Co. want to be out there leading, no matter what. Even if they haven't a clue where they're headed.

What does "taking the lead" mean in this context, anyway? Sounds like schoolyard tough talk to me. The only nation in any position to do anything substantive is China and, as you yourself have noted, they have their own concerns that may well be at odds with our government's agenda.

Seems to me that you're hearing voices. I see no evidence of other nations complaining about a lack of U.S. leadership in this regard. Individuals, sure: that's inevitable. But no nations per se.

 

[AnyOldIron]

And standing by the sidelines and letting another lead rather than attempting to take the lead is exactly what I said y'all were doing.

It was Bush himself who decided to take the lead, and his actions since that have exasperated the problem. It isn't whining to ask what someone is doing about a problem when they were so veciferous about taking the lead.

The EU takes the lead in other areas, African scenerios such as Sierra Leone or leading the fight against the Taleban in Afghanistan.

However, whenever I have asked whether Bush has the credibility or leverage to move the Chinese on the NK issue, you haven't answered but have simply stated...'what are you doing about it'.

Imagine the Admin's reaction if another nation attempted to take the lead on the 'axis of evil'... if the EU attempted to take a different approach from that dictated by the US admin. Don't forget... you are either with us or against us.

The truth is, Bush's actions have made this scenerio far harder to deal with. His belligerence has caused a deepening in NKs belligerence and his invasion of Iraq has made rogue states realise that if they don't want to be invaded and occupied they need to go nuclear sooner rather than later.

I know you are feeling hard done by because people are expecting the US to take a lead, in that case, don't start something by taking the lead, make it worse and then complain when people expect you to clear up the mess.

 

[Damocles]

Excuse me? You honestly think that Dubya is going to *let* any other nation take "the lead" in anlything? Get real. Bush & Co. want to be out there leading, no matter what. Even if they haven't a clue where they're headed.

What does "taking the lead" mean in this context, anyway? Sounds like schoolyard tough talk to me. The only nation in any position to do anything substantive is China and, as you yourself have noted, they have their own concerns that may well be at odds with our government's agenda.

Seems to me that you're hearing voices. I see no evidence of other nations complaining about a lack of U.S. leadership in this regard. Individuals, sure: that's inevitable. But no nations per se.

Either way, standing by pretending they can do nothing because of Bush is pretense. They have all the power of a sovereign nation. They have the power of the UN, they have the power of the EU, they have many things that could make the difference. Instead they stand by... whining.

 

[Damocles]

And standing by the sidelines and letting another lead rather than attempting to take the lead is exactly what I said y'all were doing.

It was Bush himself who decided to take the lead, and his actions since that have exasperated the problem. It isn't whining to ask what someone is doing about a problem when they were so veciferous about taking the lead.

The EU takes the lead in other areas, African scenerios such as Sierra Leone or leading the fight against the Taleban in Afghanistan.

However, whenever I have asked whether Bush has the credibility or leverage to move the Chinese on the NK issue, you haven't answered but have simply stated...'what are you doing about it'.

Bullpucky. I have stated, now three times, that Bush has the leverage necessary if he should choose to use it. I have twice even stated what that exact leverage was. I have even poked at you trying to get you to actually read a response instead of pretending that I haven't posted an answer to your question.

Imagine the Admin's reaction if another nation attempted to take the lead on the 'axis of evil'... if the EU attempted to take a different approach from that dictated by the US admin. Don't forget... you are either with us or against us.

LOL. Right.... The US is going to attack the EU. LOL. Damn. I haven't read anything that funny in a long, long time. This is a total copout.... "We are afraid Bush will DO something to us!" Can you cry any bigger crocodile tears?

The truth is, Bush's actions have made this scenerio far harder to deal with. His belligerence has caused a deepening in NKs belligerence and his invasion of Iraq has made rogue states realise that if they don't want to be invaded and occupied they need to go nuclear sooner rather than later.

Once again, if you truly believe that the lead on a project is driving the project to the dirt and it will effect your job because of it, you can either take the lead or stand and complain. But standing by is just as much an action as taking the lead.

I know you are feeling hard done by because people are expecting the US to take a lead, in that case, don't start something by taking the lead, make it worse and then complain when people expect you to clear up the mess.

Nope, and this truly points out that you don't actually read anybody's posts. I have stated that I know the US is going to have to do something because nobody else will. I have also made it clear that I am proud of that. I just think it is pathetic to see y'all just whining... "What are youuuuuu going to dooooooo?"

 

[AnyOldIron]

Either way, standing by pretending they can do nothing because of Bush is pretense.
They have the power of the UN, they have the power of the EU, they have many things that could make the difference. Instead they stand by... whining.

Who is standing by whining?

This is such a strawman. The EU etc is pressuring China to act.

The question is, with his previous actions, does Bush have the credibility and leverage to move the Chinese.

So far all you have done in answer of this is bleat about others not taking a lead that Bush himself demanded....

 

[AnyOldIron]

I have stated that I know the US is going to have to do something because nobody else will.

Rubbish. A mixture of self pitying (stop picking on us) and self congratulating rubbish.

The EU and rest of the world community is pressuring China to act.

The US, which has called the odds on this...AND exasperated the problem is just one amongst many attempting to move China to act.

You have completely dodged my original point by creating little strawmen. Does Bush, with his previous actions, have the credibility and leverage to take the lead that he has declared as his?

 

[Damocles]

Either way, standing by pretending they can do nothing because of Bush is pretense.
They have the power of the UN, they have the power of the EU, they have many things that could make the difference. Instead they stand by... whining.

Who is standing by whining?

This is such a strawman. The EU etc is pressuring China to act.

The question is, with his previous actions, does Bush have the credibility and leverage to move the Chinese.

So far all you have done in answer of this is bleat about others not taking a lead that Bush himself demanded....

Once again you prove that you do not read posts. Totally unequivocally just simply do not read them at all.

 

[Damocles]

I have stated that I know the US is going to have to do something because nobody else will.

Rubbish. A mixture of self pitying (stop picking on us) and self congratulating rubbish.

The EU and rest of the world community is pressuring China to act.

The US, which has called the odds on this...AND exasperated the problem is just one amongst many attempting to move China to act.

You have completely dodged my original point by creating little strawmen. Does Bush, with his previous actions, have the credibility and leverage to take the lead that he has declared as his?

I have answered your original post, have stated so, have repeated it in an answer to another poster, have suggested you read my posts, but all you have done is kept repeating this.

I will tell you one more time.

Yes, Bush has the leverage necessary, by using the fact that more than half their trade comes to us, if that is the tact he chooses to take.

Now, will you one more time repeat this inanity that I haven't answered your question and then avoid answering mine?

At least you have finally said that the EU is pressuring China, just like the US is. You are deliberate in your ignorance, you simply don't read my posts and plug on pretending they aren't there.

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Either way, standing by pretending they can do nothing because of Bush is pretense. They have all the power of a sovereign nation. They have the power of the UN, they have the power of the EU, they have many things that could make the difference. Instead they stand by... whining.

LMAO! As Ronald McPresident used to say, there you go again. Who's "whining?" Where is all this "whining" that seems to concern you so much?

 

[Damocles]

LMAO! As Ronald McPresident used to say, there you go again. Who's "whining?" Where is all this "whining" that seems to concern you so much?

It's right here in this thread. Now, either pay attention to the actual conversation with somebody from one of those other nations, or just get out of the way. There are people talking here.