Why did our founding fathers hate corporations?

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

My dad didn't tell me what to think, he asked me what I thought. He would stimulated, not dictated. He respected what I thought and we had father son conversations. And if he disagreed, he would explain why. He taught by asking, not telling. He taught by example, not edicts. He taught by encouragement, not discouragement or denunciation. But when I think of my dad today, I miss his company, his wisdom, his faith in me and most of all his undying love.

Awww, how touching! I will bet that a vast majority of individuals would describe their relationship with their dad in much the same way, regardless of whether he was a conservative or liberal, and regardless of the 'method' of child rearing used. You claim your dad didn't tell you what to think, he asked you what you thought... I can't recall my dad ever asking me what I thought when I was a kid! I don't think me or my siblings would have ever respected his authority, had he asked us what we thought... we were mush-brain kids, what the fuck does it matter what WE think? His 'job' wasn't to be our 'friend' but rather, to be our PARENT! He did an outstanding job of that, as did our mom.

 

[Bfgrn]

Awww, how touching! I will bet that a vast majority of individuals would describe their relationship with their dad in much the same way, regardless of whether he was a conservative or liberal, and regardless of the 'method' of child rearing used. You claim your dad didn't tell you what to think, he asked you what you thought... I can't recall my dad ever asking me what I thought when I was a kid! I don't think me or my siblings would have ever respected his authority, had he asked us what we thought... we were mush-brain kids, what the fuck does it matter what WE think? His 'job' wasn't to be our 'friend' but rather, to be our PARENT! He did an outstanding job of that, as did our mom.

Obviously age is a factor. But teaching a child to 'think' requires asking, not just dictating to stimulate the cognitive processes that lead to 'thought'. You want the child to be able to internalize why an action is acceptable or not acceptable. If you were mush-brain kids, how would you recognize 'authority'? I was not a mush-brain kid, so I can't relate.

Thank you for unintentionally validating what you accused me of in the last post. There is a difference in how liberals and conservatives approach child rearing. Are there some cross-overs, yes, but what you call stereotyping is reality. And now I understand why you are a mush-brain adult.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Obviously age is a factor. But teaching a child to 'think' requires asking, not just dictating to stimulate the cognitive processes that lead to 'thought'. You want the child to be able to internalize why an action is acceptable or not acceptable. If you were mush-brain kids, how would you recognize 'authority'? I was not a mush-brain kid, so I can't relate.

Thank you for unintentionally validating what you accused me of in the last post. There is a difference in how liberals and conservatives approach child rearing. Are there some cross-overs, yes, but what you call stereotyping is reality. And now I understand why you are a mush-brain adult.

You don't need to 'teach' a human to think, they are inherently born with this ability. It comes naturally to humans, unless they are in a vegetative state. And yes, whether you like to think so, you WERE a mush-brain kid once, we all were. I can't tell you how me and my siblings recognized authority, this was instilled in us before we were two-years-old. I see these people (mostly liberals) who have trouble with their 13-year-old hellion, and they wonder what they can do about the problem... well, the problems started when the hellion was two, and you failed to discipline them and gain their respect for your authority.

Now, I realize, having a bigoted prejudiced mind like you seem to have, reading this, you might get the idea my dad was a real authoritarian hard ass, and believe me, when I was a young child, I would have probably compared him with Mussolini. I can often recall me or my siblings whining the ever-popular "it's not faiiiir!" My dad would say, this family is NOT a democracy! But as we grew up into adolescence, both of my parents were big believers in letting us make our own choices and decisions. We learned that decisions have consequences, and we had to live with them. As a teen, I never had a curfew on weekends.. I could stay out as late as I wanted. But, I knew, if I stayed out extremely late, my dad would give me just enough time to doze off real good, and then wake me up! It might be 4:30AM...Time to get to work! Oh, and that's another thing... we all had our chores! Nowadays, kids probably ask, "what's a chore?" Chores were how we learned responsibility.

 

[Bfgrn]

You don't need to 'teach' a human to think, they are inherently born with this ability. It comes naturally to humans, unless they are in a vegetative state. And yes, whether you like to think so, you WERE a mush-brain kid once, we all were. I can't tell you how me and my siblings recognized authority, this was instilled in us before we were two-years-old. I see these people (mostly liberals) who have trouble with their 13-year-old hellion, and they wonder what they can do about the problem... well, the problems started when the hellion was two, and you failed to discipline them and gain their respect for your authority.

Now, I realize, having a bigoted prejudiced mind like you seem to have, reading this, you might get the idea my dad was a real authoritarian hard ass, and believe me, when I was a young child, I would have probably compared him with Mussolini. I can often recall me or my siblings whining the ever-popular "it's not faiiiir!" My dad would say, this family is NOT a democracy! But as we grew up into adolescence, both of my parents were big believers in letting us make our own choices and decisions. We learned that decisions have consequences, and we had to live with them. As a teen, I never had a curfew on weekends.. I could stay out as late as I wanted. But, I knew, if I stayed out extremely late, my dad would give me just enough time to doze off real good, and then wake me up! It might be 4:30AM...Time to get to work! Oh, and that's another thing... we all had our chores! Nowadays, kids probably ask, "what's a chore?" Chores were how we learned responsibility.

Thank you for admitting you grew up in the typical conservative setting.

The conservative worldview, the strict father model, assumes that the world is dangerous and difficult and that children are born bad and must be made good. The strict father is the moral authority who supports and defends the family, tells his wife what to do, and teaches his kids right from wrong. The only way to do that is through painful discipline - physical punishment that by adulthood will become internal discipline. The good people are the disciplined people. Once grown, the self-reliant, disciplined children are on their own. Those children who remain dependent (who were spoiled, overly willful, or recalcitrant) should be forced to undergo further discipline or be cut free with no support to face the discipline of the outside world.

So, project this onto the nation and you see that to the right wing, the good citizens are the disciplined ones - those who have already become wealthy or at least self-reliant - and those who are on the way. Social programs, meanwhile, "spoil" people by giving them things they haven't earned and keeping them dependent. The government is there only to protect the nation, maintain order, administer justice (punishment), and to provide for the promotion and orderly conduct of business. In this way, disciplined people become self-reliant. Wealth is a measure of discipline. Taxes beyond the minimum needed for such government take away from the good, disciplined people rewards that they have earned and spend it on those who have not earned it. ref

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Thank you for admitting you grew up in the typical conservative setting.

The conservative worldview, the strict father model, assumes that the world is dangerous and difficult and that children are born bad and must be made good. The strict father is the moral authority who supports and defends the family, tells his wife what to do, and teaches his kids right from wrong. The only way to do that is through painful discipline - physical punishment that by adulthood will become internal discipline. The good people are the disciplined people. Once grown, the self-reliant, disciplined children are on their own. Those children who remain dependent (who were spoiled, overly willful, or recalcitrant) should be forced to undergo further discipline or be cut free with no support to face the discipline of the outside world.

So, project this onto the nation and you see that to the right wing, the good citizens are the disciplined ones - those who have already become wealthy or at least self-reliant - and those who are on the way. Social programs, meanwhile, "spoil" people by giving them things they haven't earned and keeping them dependent. The government is there only to protect the nation, maintain order, administer justice (punishment), and to provide for the promotion and orderly conduct of business. In this way, disciplined people become self-reliant. Wealth is a measure of discipline. Taxes beyond the minimum needed for such government take away from the good, disciplined people rewards that they have earned and spend it on those who have not earned it. ref

What a load of pinhead psychobabble-horse-crap!

My dad, like myself, didn't believe we were born bad and needed to be made good... we are born STUPID and need to be made SMART! I guess you missed that life lesson, huh? My dad was very pragmatic, and so was my mom, but they weren't strict, and they weren't rigidly conservative. I got kicked out of 6th grade for my hair being too long, and my parents took it to the school board and had the rules changed to reflect changing times. My mom actually marched with Dr. King in Selma. My parents lead by example, used good common sense, and made pragmatic decisions. They stressed responsibility and self-reliance. From the time we turned 13, we had to do our own laundry, and get ourselves up for school. In the afternoon, we all had our chores which were to be done after our homework, and then we could play until dinner. BUT... My dad bought the 2 cases of beer for my graduation party! So my "rigid conservative" upbringing, didn't transpire as you have stereotyped it to be. My upbringing was somewhat unorthodox, a mixture of both liberal and conservative social principles, but always regarding common sense and pragmatism at the core.

My parents taught us to think for ourselves, they would give advice, especially my mom... my dad 'shared wisdom' mostly. But they instilled in us, the ability to think for ourselves and make sound decisions. We often learned through our mistakes, and we paid the price for the consequences. By the time we were ready to go out into the world, all of us were pretty much, well-grounded, and confident in our ability to make it on our own. Politically, my parents were very independent-minded, they often voted for a third party candidate. I have a sister who is more liberal than Rana, and one who is more conservative than Rush Limbaugh. We have some interesting holiday conversations, to say the least. The point is, your "stereotype" doesn't fit reality, because life is not a stereotype for ANYONE! We are all individuals, we were all raised differently by different types of individuals, all with different circumstances, all with different problems and strengths... there is no way to say "conservative parenting" or "liberal parenting" and present anything other than a bigoted stereotypical world view.

 

[Bfgrn]

The point is, your "stereotype" doesn't fit reality, because life is not a stereotype for ANYONE!

Except for liberal 'pinheads', right Dixie?

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

What a load of pinhead psychobabble-horse-crap!

My dad, like myself, didn't believe we were born bad and needed to be made good... we are born STUPID and need to be made SMART! I guess you missed that life lesson, huh? My dad was very pragmatic, and so was my mom, but they weren't strict, and they weren't rigidly conservative. I got kicked out of 6th grade for my hair being too long, and my parents took it to the school board and had the rules changed to reflect changing times. My mom actually marched with Dr. King in Selma. My parents lead by example, used good common sense, and made pragmatic decisions. They stressed responsibility and self-reliance. From the time we turned 13, we had to do our own laundry, and get ourselves up for school. In the afternoon, we all had our chores which were to be done after our homework, and then we could play until dinner. BUT... My dad bought the 2 cases of beer for my graduation party! So my "rigid conservative" upbringing, didn't transpire as you have stereotyped it to be. My upbringing was somewhat unorthodox, a mixture of both liberal and conservative social principles, but always regarding common sense and pragmatism at the core.

My parents taught us to think for ourselves, they would give advice, especially my mom... my dad 'shared wisdom' mostly. But they instilled in us, the ability to think for ourselves and make sound decisions. We often learned through our mistakes, and we paid the price for the consequences. By the time we were ready to go out into the world, all of us were pretty much, well-grounded, and confident in our ability to make it on our own. Politically, my parents were very independent-minded, they often voted for a third party candidate. I have a sister who is more liberal than Rana, and one who is more conservative than Rush Limbaugh. We have some interesting holiday conversations, to say the least. The point is, your "stereotype" doesn't fit reality, because life is not a stereotype for ANYONE! We are all individuals, we were all raised differently by different types of individuals, all with different circumstances, all with different problems and strengths... there is no way to say "conservative parenting" or "liberal parenting" and present anything other than a bigoted stereotypical world view.

Self reliance means we shouldnt be using foreign slaves to put americans out of work via globalization zealotry.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Except for liberal 'pinheads', right Dixie?

No, not even with liberal pinheads, everyone is different. My uber-lib sister is very strict and rigid with her kids, they don't get away with half the stuff she did in her youth.

Self reliance means we shouldnt be using foreign slaves to put americans out of work via globalization zealotry.

OMG, give it a rest!

 

[DamnYankee]

I would say that you have better described a liberal approach than a conservatives one. The conservative model of child rearing is the strict father or authoritarian model. The father tells the children what to do and how to think.

It's too bad that you're so closed-minded, otherwise you might realize that the exact opposite is true. For example, my son was taught in high school US history that after fighting the Democrat Party for 150 years over equal rights for blacks, then women, that in the 1960's the two parties up and "switched" positions on equal rights. I asked him if that made sense- based on what he knows about family life. He did some of his on research and asked his teacher some rather pointed questions that she couldn't answer. So now he knows that he was lied to by the system, and his teacher was a willing participant.

 

[Bfgrn]

It's too bad that you're so closed-minded, otherwise you might realize that the exact opposite is true. For example, my son was taught in high school US history that after fighting the Democrat Party for 150 years over equal rights for blacks, then women, that in the 1960's the two parties up and "switched" positions on equal rights. I asked him if that made sense- based on what he knows about family life. He did some of his on research and asked his teacher some rather pointed questions that she couldn't answer. So now he knows that he was lied to by the system, and his teacher was a willing participant.

Abraham Lincoln was one of America's greatest liberals and the Republican party was once the party of anti-slavery activists, modernizers, ex-Whigs and ex-Free Soilers. The switch happened before the 1960's. The fight over civil rights for blacks was a north/south issue with the Mason Dixon line as a border. The fact that the Republican party was almost non existent in the south didn't alter the fact the people were ultra conservatives...a.k.a. the Dixiecrats. The same regions today are Republican strongholds, because the people are still conservatives, and the former Dixiecrats switched parties.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

No, not even with liberal pinheads, everyone is different. My uber-lib sister is very strict and rigid with her kids, they don't get away with half the stuff she did in her youth.



OMG, give it a rest!

No. I won't give the truth a rest, you traitorous internationalist fascist.

 

[DamnYankee]

Abraham Lincoln was one of America's greatest liberals and the Republican party was once the party of anti-slavery activists, modernizers, ex-Whigs and ex-Free Soilers. The switch happened before the 1960's. The fight over civil rights for blacks was a north/south issue with the Mason Dixon line as a border. The fact that the Republican party was almost non existent in the south didn't alter the fact the people were ultra conservatives...a.k.a. the Dixiecrats. The same regions today are Republican strongholds, because the people are still conservatives, and the former Dixiecrats switched parties.

You don't know much about Southern political history. The modern terms "Liberal" and "Conservative" had nothing to do with these political divisions.

Back in the Civil War era decedents of the English occupied the flat lands and practiced plantation farming. The lower quality farmland in the Piedmont counties were settled later by German immigrants and the crappy farmland in the mountain counties by the Scots and Irish. Except for rich English farmers, very few Southerners had slaves. All the political power was with the rich folk and they were all Democrats. This political division still exists today, and can bee seen in 'blue-red' county-level maps of recent presidential elections.

Lincoln was influenced by the Radical Republicans who took the words from our founding documents with great reverence, in this instance this

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

Modern conservatives, TEA Party Patriots, are political descendants of the radical Republicans, and likewise hold our founding documents with great reverence. Not so with modern liberals.

 

[Bfgrn]

You don't know much about Southern political history. The modern terms "Liberal" and "Conservative" had nothing to do with these political divisions.

Back in the Civil War era decedents of the English occupied the flat lands and practiced plantation farming. The lower quality farmland in the Piedmont counties were settled later by German immigrants and the crappy farmland in the mountain counties by the Scots and Irish. Except for rich English farmers, very few Southerners had slaves. All the political power was with the rich folk and they were all Democrats. This political division still exists today, and can bee seen in 'blue-red' county-level maps of recent presidential elections.

Lincoln was influenced by the Radical Republicans who took the words from our founding documents with great reverence, in this instance this



Modern conservatives, TEA Party Patriots, are political descendants of the radical Republicans, and likewise hold our founding documents with great reverence. Not so with modern liberals.

DY, you are living in some alter universe. The tea partiers kicked off their first national convention with a speech by a radical Republican; a racist xenophobe. How can anyone be as warped as you are?

Here's one of your modern conservatives...

S.C. Lt. Gov. Andre Bauer Compares Helping Poor to Feeding Stray Animals

 

[midcan5]

Interesting thread.

"It has indeed been a trying hour for the Republic; but I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war." Abraham Lincoln in a letter to William F. Elkins, November 21, 1864.

"...In his classic study of mid 19th century American labor, Norman Ware observes that the imposition of industrial capitalism and its values 'was repugnant to an astonishingly large section of the earlier American community'. The primary reason was 'the decline of the industrial worker as a person', the 'degradation' and 'psychological change' that followed from the 'loss of dignity and independence' and of democratic rights and freedoms. These reactions were vividly expressed in the working class literature, often by women, who played a prominent role despite their subordination in the general society." Introduction 'Taking The Risk Out Of Democracy' by Alex Carey

"We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together." Dwight D. Eisenhower

and http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/827

 

[DamnYankee]

DY, you are living in some alter universe. The tea partiers kicked off their first national convention with a speech by a radical Republican; a racist xenophobe. How can anyone be as warped as you are?

Here's one of your modern conservatives...

S.C. Lt. Gov. Andre Bauer Compares Helping Poor to Feeding Stray Animals

You say I'm living in an "alter universe" only because you can't dispute my facts about Southern political history.

If you want to play the game where we use one fringe individual to paint an entire political movement then please agree to this now so I can cite examples of lunatic fringe liberals and claim that it represents all liberalism.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Abraham Lincoln was one of America's greatest liberals and the Republican party was once the party of anti-slavery activists, modernizers, ex-Whigs and ex-Free Soilers. The switch happened before the 1960's. The fight over civil rights for blacks was a north/south issue with the Mason Dixon line as a border. The fact that the Republican party was almost non existent in the south didn't alter the fact the people were ultra conservatives...a.k.a. the Dixiecrats. The same regions today are Republican strongholds, because the people are still conservatives, and the former Dixiecrats switched parties.

George C. Wallace... Former Dixiecrat... NEVER changed parties! He DID run for president as part of a third party candidacy, but he was NEVER a Republican. Same is true for Lester Maddox, governor of Georgia. And let's not forget Robert KKK Byrd.

So where are all of these "Dixiecrats" who changed to Republicans???

 

[Bfgrn]

George C. Wallace... Former Dixiecrat... NEVER changed parties! He DID run for president as part of a third party candidacy, but he was NEVER a Republican. Same is true for Lester Maddox, governor of Georgia. And let's not forget Robert KKK Byrd.

So where are all of these "Dixiecrats" who changed to Republicans???

Strom Thurmond, Jesse Helms... The larger point Dixie, civil rights and segregation were never conservative beliefs, regardless of party. Conservatives have no record of any advocacy for minorities or poor citizens. Liberals in both parties have been the advocates and agents of change.

Both George Wallace and Robert Byrd denounced their prior beliefs. And the new generation that followed were Republicans; the Trent 'the United States would have avoided "all these problems" if then-segregationist Strom Thurmond had been elected president in 1948.' Lott, Newt, Ashcroft, Cochran, Alexander.

 

[DamnYankee]

Strom Thurmond, Jesse Helms... The larger point Dixie, civil rights and segregation were never conservative beliefs, regardless of party. Conservatives have no record of any advocacy for minorities or poor citizens. Liberals in both parties have been the advocates and agents of change.

Both George Wallace and Robert Byrd denounced their prior beliefs. And the new generation that followed were Republicans; the Trent 'the United States would have avoided "all these problems" if then-segregationist Strom Thurmond had been elected president in 1948.' Lott, Newt, Ashcroft, Cochran, Alexander.

Again, it was the Radical Republicans who insisted that the Southern Democrats accept racial equality, and this was done on the basis of the Founding Documents, and what the representatives of those States had already signed onto. It is also the modern Conservatives who hold those documents in great reverence, and it is modern Liberals who hold them in disdain. Also, modern Liberal policies of reduce expectations for minorities has led to reduced outcomes and decimation of minority families, especially back families, in way that the KKK could never had dreamed for.

These are facts that are undeniable.

 

[Phantasmal]

George C. Wallace... Former Dixiecrat... NEVER changed parties! He DID run for president as part of a third party candidacy, but he was NEVER a Republican. Same is true for Lester Maddox, governor of Georgia. And let's not forget Robert KKK Byrd.

So where are all of these "Dixiecrats" who changed to Republicans???

Probably dancing with the devil, aren't most of them dead?

 

[Bfgrn]

Again, it was the Radical Republicans who insisted that the Southern Democrats accept racial equality, and this was done on the basis of the Founding Documents, and what the representatives of those States had already signed onto. It is also the modern Conservatives who hold those documents in great reverence, and it is modern Liberals who hold them in disdain. Also, modern Liberal policies of reduce expectations for minorities has led to reduced outcomes and decimation of minority families, especially back families, in way that the KKK could never had dreamed for.

These are facts that are undeniable.

Those 'radical Republicans' you speak of are called LIBERALS, like the great liberal President Abraham Lincoln. The 'Southern Democrats' you speak of are called CONSERVATIVES.

The modern conservatives are authoritarians who are enemies of the democratic ideals of liberals like Thomas Jefferson. They view the Constitution as a weapon to wield against the living by twisting the words of the dead.

Your typical right wing twisting of social programs is ignorant.

THOSE facts are undeniable.