Why tax cuts DO create jobs!

our older son runs his own business and employs 30 people

a tax cut would not cause him to hire more people because he does not need more people right now tax cut or not
 
I was Libertarian before Libertarian was cool.




you forgot to add totalitarian statist fascist communist and maybe a few others.

pretty broad group you got there. obviously you're not looking for answers, just throwing insinuations.

Because you have no answers. You can't site one example of how your political philosophy has helped grow and keep America strong. Or one country to ever adopt libertarianism except Somolia.
 
Because you have no answers. You can't site one example of how your political philosophy has helped grow and keep America strong. Or one country to ever adopt libertarianism except Somolia.

the founders of this nation were the original Libertarians. At least until conservatives and liberals took over.
 
So what you're telling me is that stuff happened before the explosion of government spending associated with WWII and then stuff happened after WWII?

OK.

Thanks.

The point was that there was a tripling of government spending PRIOR to the war that didn't generate ANY growth. Hence your argument that we should simply spend spend spend ala Krugman is wrong.

The fact that they immediately began CUTTING spending after the war and the FACT that the economy continued to grow supports the theory that responsible spending (ie... not running consistent deficits) is a better stimulant for growth.

Keep in mind, your 'explosion' was quickly followed by an 'implosion'... yet the economy continued to improve.... for the reasons I stated, which you of course ignored.
 
our older son runs his own business and employs 30 people

a tax cut would not cause him to hire more people because he does not need more people right now tax cut or not

Think about this... if people in general were planning on paying more taxes in 2011 on similar levels of income than 2010, what would that do to projected spending by consumers?

Now if you extend the tax cuts to 2011 and 2012, what do you suppose that does to anticipated growth in consumer spending? while your son's business may not anticipate any further growth that would require additional hires, many businesses will anticipate higher growth rates in consumer spending and will hire in accordance to those beliefs.

Note: for the morons... NO, it doesn't mean they will all go out and hire people tomorrow.
 
The point was that there was a tripling of government spending PRIOR to the war that didn't generate ANY growth. Hence your argument that we should simply spend spend spend ala Krugman is wrong.

The fact that they immediately began CUTTING spending after the war and the FACT that the economy continued to grow supports the theory that responsible spending (ie... not running consistent deficits) is a better stimulant for growth.

Keep in mind, your 'explosion' was quickly followed by an 'implosion'... yet the economy continued to improve.... for the reasons I stated, which you of course ignored.


Nothing that you wrote had an relevance whatsoever to anything that I wrote. The fact of the matter is that government spending on WWII finally got us out of the Great Depression, evidencing that government spending can indeed stimulate economic growth. Christ, in 1940 GDP was about $97 billion and by 1945 it was $221 billion. What do you contend accounts for that? Is it your contention that the increase in government spending from $9 billion to $92 billion over the same period is mere coincidence?

The fact that the economy continued to grow after the war only suggests that it necessary for the government to always spend as though aggregate demand is low.
 
Nothing that you wrote had an relevance whatsoever to anything that I wrote. The fact of the matter is that government spending on WWII finally got us out of the Great Depression, evidencing that government spending can indeed stimulate economic growth. Christ, in 1940 GDP was about $97 billion and by 1945 it was $221 billion. What do you contend accounts for that? Is it your contention that the increase in government spending from $9 billion to $92 billion over the same period is mere coincidence?

The fact that the economy continued to grow after the war only suggests that it necessary for the government to always spend as though aggregate demand is low.

Wrong moron. As I stated, government spending almost tripled during the great depression and did nothing to stimulate the economy. I understand and agree that it was WWII that got us out of the depression. But you are creating a lesson that does not exist.

You want to use WWII as a reason for spending massive amounts of funds today and that is a very poor decision. We are already near the debt levels at the height of WWII (as a percent of GDP). The fact that the politicians at the end of WWII immediately cut spending by 60% after the war shows that even they understood those levels of debt are unsustainable.

THAT is the lesson you continue to ignore. You just point to the expansion of spending and say 'look... they spent, so we should spend to'. Your problem comes from ignoring the fact that we have already done the spending. We cannot afford to do more. It is time we tighten our belts and take the pain rather than continuing to push the problem into the future (which only makes the problem worse)

As for government spending stimulating the economy... it is only effective if it is done correctly. If the government were to actually get around to funding infrastructure projects, I would agree that that type of spending can stimulate growth. But the continued handouts do little (if anything) to stimulate growth. They are simply stop gap measures that throw good money after bad.
 
Wrong moron. As I stated, government spending almost tripled during the great depression and did nothing to stimulate the economy. I understand and agree that it was WWII that got us out of the depression. But you are creating a lesson that does not exist.

Thank you for acknowledging that government spending can indeed create economic growth. But you really ought not pretend that spending consistently increased from 1933 through 1940 and that the economy did not grow during that period. We both know that is not the case, particularly when the government cut spending in 1937 and 1938 and growth halted thereafter.


You want to use WWII as a reason for spending massive amounts of funds today and that is a very poor decision. We are already near the debt levels at the height of WWII (as a percent of GDP). The fact that the politicians at the end of WWII immediately cut spending by 60% after the war shows that even they understood those levels of debt are unsustainable.

I'm not suggesting that we keep spending high forever. As with WWII we can decrease spending once the economy is growing again. It isn't sustainable long-term, but it is a smart short-term strategy for improving the economy.


THAT is the lesson you continue to ignore. You just point to the expansion of spending and say 'look... they spent, so we should spend to'. Your problem comes from ignoring the fact that we have already done the spending. We cannot afford to do more. It is time we tighten our belts and take the pain rather than continuing to push the problem into the future (which only makes the problem worse)

I'm not ignoring anything. You are pretending that I propose high government spending indefinitely. That's not the case at all. And we certainly can afford to do more. The bond market is hardly concerned with debt and if debt really was a problem we shouldn't be cutting revenues right now. But I guess that's the kind of stimulus you like so it's OK.


As for government spending stimulating the economy... it is only effective if it is done correctly. If the government were to actually get around to funding infrastructure projects, I would agree that that type of spending can stimulate growth. But the continued handouts do little (if anything) to stimulate growth. They are simply stop gap measures that throw good money after bad.

Unless, of course, the handouts are to the rich. You seem to like those well enough. It's just the handouts to the poor that you are troubled with.
 
Thank you for acknowledging that government spending can indeed create economic growth. But you really ought not pretend that spending consistently increased from 1933 through 1940 and that the economy did not grow during that period. We both know that is not the case, particularly when the government cut spending in 1937 and 1938 and growth halted thereafter.

right... that great 'jobless recovery' type of growth.... just like the failed stimulus we are seeing today. Once the spending went towards actually CREATING jobs, things turned around. Amazing how that happens.


I'm not suggesting that we keep spending high forever. As with WWII we can decrease spending once the economy is growing again. It isn't sustainable long-term, but it is a smart short-term strategy for improving the economy.

Yes, you are... we have already been outspending for 30 years. The last two have been at insane levels. They are not sustainable any longer. Our debt to GDP is already far too high.


I'm not ignoring anything. You are pretending that I propose high government spending indefinitely. That's not the case at all. And we certainly can afford to do more. The bond market is hardly concerned with debt and if debt really was a problem we shouldn't be cutting revenues right now. But I guess that's the kind of stimulus you like so it's OK.

What you (and those of the Krugman ilk) continue to ignore is that government spending for the sake of more spending is NOT a good option. In fact it is highly detrimental. Debt IS a concern. Inflation IS a concern. which is why we have seen the dramatic decline in the long bond pricing and thus seeing yields spike up. More spending would only exacerbate that problem.

what we need now is for the idiots in DC to go back to Clinton era spending levels. But I know... you don't care about that, to you 'we should just keep on spending a LOT now, because that will help us long term'.


Unless, of course, the handouts are to the rich. You seem to like those well enough. It's just the handouts to the poor that you are troubled with.

So again, when 80%+ of the total dollars go to the poor and middle classes, to you that is a 'tax cut for the rich'.
 
No. Your comments were completely unrelated, and did nothing to invalidate her point. I challenge you to explain it again. I challenge anyone reading this to make sense of your irrelevant rant.


According to you, being concerned about losing key abilities is "being japanese". MMMMMkay.

You are the biggest dolt that I've ever seen.
My response was to her comment about the US not being able to produce what we may need.
IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR DAMBASS OR ANY OF YOUR DUMBASS IDEAS.
 
right... that great 'jobless recovery' type of growth.... just like the failed stimulus we are seeing today. Once the spending went towards actually CREATING jobs, things turned around. Amazing how that happens.

Before Roosevelt cut spending in 1937, unemployment dropped by 10%, from about 25% to about 15%. Then in 1937 Roosevelt did exactly what you are suggesting, tightened the belt and cut government spending. Unemployment promptly rose back up to 19% in 1938.



Yes, you are... we have already been outspending for 30 years. The last two have been at insane levels. They are not sustainable any longer. Our debt to GDP is already far too high

It certainly is sustainable. The bond market is hardly fearful of the levels of debt that we've amassed. And again, if you're that concerned about debt and deficits you wouldn't support cutting revenues, but you do!


What you (and those of the Krugman ilk) continue to ignore is that government spending for the sake of more spending is NOT a good option. In fact it is highly detrimental. Debt IS a concern. Inflation IS a concern. which is why we have seen the dramatic decline in the long bond pricing and thus seeing yields spike up. More spending would only exacerbate that problem.

Inflation is not a concern at all. Interest rates on treasury notes have been at historic lows and have only spiked recently because of the tax cut compromise which will result in less revenues.


what we need now is for the idiots in DC to go back to Clinton era spending levels. But I know... you don't care about that, to you 'we should just keep on spending a LOT now, because that will help us long term'.

Party like its 1937! Do the double dip!


So again, when 80%+ of the total dollars go to the poor and middle classes, to you that is a 'tax cut for the rich'.

No, when you cut taxes for the rich they are tax cuts for the rich. I mean, even the rich benefit on the lower and middle class tax cuts. They get lower rates on the first $250,000 they earn. The cuts above that level only benefit the rich and are tax cuts for the rich. On a per capita basis, they make out a whole lot better than the poor and middle classes.
 
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Before Roosevelt cut spending in 1937, unemployment dropped by 10%, from about 25% to about 15%. Then in 1937 Roosevelt did exactly what you are suggesting, tightened the belt and cut government spending. Unemployment promptly rose back up to 19% in 1938.

Show me evidence that unemployment dropped 10% due to his spending vs. due to people who stopped looking for work and thus were not counted. Also show me the recession of 37/39 wasn't due to the anti business climate, the rise of the AFL and CIO. Your proclaiming it was due to spending is nothing short of speculation. You have been brainwashed by the Keynesian rhetoric.


It certainly is sustainable. The bond market is hardly fearful of the levels of debt that we've amassed. And again, if you're that concerned about debt and deficits you wouldn't support cutting revenues, but you do!

Again moron... the long bonds have been plummeting in value and rates have spiked over 50 bps in the last two weeks. Due tell us why that is occurring despite the Fed announcing it was buying treasuries.

Again... you are pretending that tax cuts lead to loss of revenue. If the tax cuts spur growth and promote real job growth then revenues will increase as the jobless rate goes down.

Also... you again pretend that I haven't said five billion times that we MUST TAKE THE PAIN NOW, TIGHTEN OUR BELTS AND MAKE THE CUTS.

No matter how many times you want to change what my position actually is, it doesn't change the reality of the matter and anyone that reads this thread can see that.

The debt is most certainly NOT sustainable you twit. But I know, you will take us all the way down the path that Europe took until we reach the end and then you will say... 'why didn't they warn us the debt levels were unsustainable' and then you will try to find a way to blame Republicans for your sides idiocy.


Inflation is not a concern at all. Interest rates on treasury notes have been at historic lows and have only spiked recently because of the tax cut compromise which will result in less revenues.

Show me what trash you are reading to suggest treasuries are spiking due to the tax cut compromise.


No, when you cut taxes for the rich they are tax cuts for the rich. I mean, even the rich benefit on the lower and middle class tax cuts. They get lower rates on the first $250,000 they earn. The cuts above that level only benefit the rich and are tax cuts for the rich. On a per capita basis, they make out a whole lot better than the poor and middle classes.

On a per capita basis they pay a whole lot more than the poor and middle class. Again, if the top half pay 97% of all federal income taxes then they are of course going to benefit.

Also, no matter how much you cry whine and stomp your feet, the BULK of the compromise goes to benefit the poor and lower classes. Those making under $250k. While you are obviously correct in stating that the rich get a portion of those cuts, they are only 5% of the population, thus only about 5% of that total actually goes to them. The BULK of the tax cuts in real dollars goes to those making less than $250k.

But do keep pretending otherwise. It is the same stupid shit that got Dems crushed in the House and Senate this year and will do so again in 2012 if they continue with the horrid and failed economic policies they have implemented in the past four years controlling Congress.
 
Show me evidence that unemployment dropped 10% due to his spending vs. due to people who stopped looking for work and thus were not counted. Also show me the recession of 37/39 wasn't due to the anti business climate, the rise of the AFL and CIO. Your proclaiming it was due to spending is nothing short of speculation. You have been brainwashed by the Keynesian rhetoric.


Here's what we know. Government spending increased in the period from 1933 through 1936. During the same period the economy grew. Government spending was cut in 1937 and 1938. Unemployment increased and economic growth stalled during this period. From 1939 through 1945 government spending increase exponentially. During that period the economic grew at an unprecedented rate and unemployment dropped significantly.


Again moron... the long bonds have been plummeting in value and rates have spiked over 50 bps in the last two weeks. Due tell us why that is occurring despite the Fed announcing it was buying treasuries.

Hey Henny Penny, can you post the latest numbers for the long bonds as compared to, say, one year ago?


Again... you are pretending that tax cuts lead to loss of revenue. If the tax cuts spur growth and promote real job growth then revenues will increase as the jobless rate goes down.

Cutting rates can promote economic growth, but tax cuts simply do not increase revenue. At least not where tax rates are right now.


Also... you again pretend that I haven't said five billion times that we MUST TAKE THE PAIN NOW, TIGHTEN OUR BELTS AND MAKE THE CUTS.

No matter how many times you want to change what my position actually is, it doesn't change the reality of the matter and anyone that reads this thread can see that.

The debt is most certainly NOT sustainable you twit. But I know, you will take us all the way down the path that Europe took until we reach the end and then you will say... 'why didn't they warn us the debt levels were unsustainable' and then you will try to find a way to blame Republicans for your sides idiocy.

Well, what you want and what happens in the real world are not close to similar. And, since we're looking at Europe for examples of what we ought to do, take a close look at Ireland's austerity policies and see where it has gotten them.


Show me what trash you are reading to suggest treasuries are spiking due to the tax cut compromise.

I was speaking of the 10 year note. On Monday, December 6, the 10 year note rate was 2.95%. Obama announced the tax cut compromise that night. By Friday, December 10, the rate was at 3.32%, the highest it has been since April.


On a per capita basis they pay a whole lot more than the poor and middle class. Again, if the top half pay 97% of all federal income taxes then they are of course going to benefit.

Again, they earn a whole hell of a lot more income. And the rich don't have to benefit substantially more than others. The Democratic plan had the super rich benefiting equally with those earning $250,000.

Also, no matter how much you cry whine and stomp your feet, the BULK of the compromise goes to benefit the poor and lower classes. Those making under $250k. While you are obviously correct in stating that the rich get a portion of those cuts, they are only 5% of the population, thus only about 5% of that total actually goes to them. The BULK of the tax cuts in real dollars goes to those making less than $250k.


Yes, I am obviously correct. Thank you.

But do keep pretending otherwise. It is the same stupid shit that got Dems crushed in the House and Senate this year and will do so again in 2012 if they continue with the horrid and failed economic policies they have implemented in the past four years controlling Congress.

I'm not pretending anything. I'm simply choosing an metric that you don't like to use. You don't have to. We can agree to disagree on which metric is better.
 
Here's what we know. Government spending increased in the period from 1933 through 1936. During the same period the economy grew. Government spending was cut in 1937 and 1938. Unemployment increased and economic growth stalled during this period. From 1939 through 1945 government spending increase exponentially. During that period the economic grew at an unprecedented rate and unemployment dropped significantly.
what was the budget deficit in each of those years?
 
You are the biggest dolt that I've ever seen.
My response was to her comment about the US not being able to produce what we may need.
IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR DAMBASS OR ANY OF YOUR DUMBASS IDEAS.

It has everything to do with my "dumbass ideas". I have always cited national security and self reliance concerns as part of my objection to globalization stupidity.

And your rant still had nothing to do with her post. Sorry. You lose again.

I still don't see how this concern is "being japanese" as you stated.
 
All deficits and all as a percentage of GDP:

1933: 4.0%
1934: 5.9%
1935: 4.0%
1936: 5.5%
1937: 2.1%
1938: 0.1%
1939: 3.2%
1940: 3.0%
1941: 4.3%
1942: 14.2%
1943: 30.3%
1944: 22.7%
1945: 21.5%

so in all government spending years, the deficit increased, whereas in non spending years, it decreased.

so your opinion is it's better to have people working than it is to control our national debt.

thank you for stipulating that you want the US to implode.
 
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