A Theology Question

For me, it's much easier. Occam's razor. God isn't limited, or jealous, or angry. God doesn't exist. The concept is entirely unnecessary, except as a tool to keep the masses in check.

God is a man made invention.
What does Occam’s Razor say for the creation of the Universe? The creation of Space-Time at the Big Bang? Just magic? LOL

The only logical answer is “I don’t know”.

I think of God as a place card; a name for something beyond the Natural Universe that is beyond mortal comprehension. I don’t know what it is, but it seems there’s more to existence than we are seeing on front of our noses.
 
What does Occam’s Razor say for the creation of the Universe? The creation of Space-Time at the Big Bang? Just magic? LOL

The only logical answer is “I don’t know”.

That there was a natural process that occurred. One we don't understand.

What is the explanation for who made God? Seems like the universe would have been a lot easier job. And who was GOD'S watchmaker? Where did HE come from?

'I don't know' is the right answer. 'God did it' is the wrong answer. It's lazy. No need to figure it out or question how it happened, God did it. Will I win the lottery tonight? I don't know. But I can certainly take a pretty damn educated guess.
 
Incorrect.

It has every applicability. It is the basis of many atheists' approach. It is, in fact, really the ONLY applicable point of discussion. Unless one wishes to avoid scientific approaches to knowledge.
If science is asked 'Does God exist?' the answer is a resounding 'don't know, don't care'. Science is 100% unconcerned with God. God, if one existed, would exist outside of the natural world. It's that simple.

Agreed on Science and God. Unless it takes place inside the Natural Universe, science can’t study it and, therefore, won’t even try. A point some atheists and theists don’t seem to comprehend.
 
That there was a natural process that occurred. One we don't understand.

What is the explanation for who made God? Seems like the universe would have been a lot easier job. And who was GOD'S watchmaker? Where did HE come from?

'I don't know' is the right answer. 'God did it' is the wrong answer. It's lazy. No need to figure it out or question how it happened, God did it. Will I win the lottery tonight? I don't know. But I can certainly take a pretty damn educated guess.

No one knows the circumstances surrounding the origin of the Big Bang. Only that it happened.

Asking about the origin of a power outside Space-Time is as silly as the question about an all powerful being creating an immovable rock; those limitations only apply inside our Universe.

Another example is time. Time is a fundamental part of our Universe. The concept of Eternity is beyond time. Eternity does not equal forever since forever is infinite time. The current science shows our Universe will die of Heat death; The Big Chill. As such, it will last forever which is not the same as being eternal. The two concepts are completely different.

The Lotto is a limited by the rules of the Natural Universe. The odds are against winning, but you and I both know we can’t win if we don’t play. Comparing this to anything external to our Universe is a failure in logic.
 
No one knows the circumstances surrounding the origin of the Big Bang. Only that it happened.

Asking about the origin of a power outside Space-Time is as silly as the question about an all powerful being creating an immovable rock; those limitations only apply inside our Universe.

Another example is time. Time is a fundamental part of our Universe. The concept of Eternity is beyond time. Eternity does not equal forever since forever is infinite time. The current science shows our Universe will die of Heat death; The Big Chill. As such, it will last forever which is not the same as being eternal. The two concepts are completely different.

The Lotto is a limited by the rules of the Natural Universe. The odds are against winning, but you and I both know we can’t win if we don’t play. Comparing this to anything external to our Universe is a failure in logic.

To me, that's just another dodge. You can ask how the universe was created, but I can't ask how the creator was created?

My point is this. Just because I don't know something, it does not mean that all possible outcomes are equally probable. I don't know how the universe started, but the God answer is not on equal footing with the natural answer. Because the natural answer has explained every single thing we understand. There are no exceptions. I don't know if I'll win the lottery, but the 'no' outcome seems much more likely.
 
He's right, of course and I'm not opposed to believing in a god/gods. There's just no reason to. I'd love to know that I could exist in a state of eternal bliss simply by jumping through a few hoops for an all-powerful being.
Only the religious jump through hoops. Believing there is more to existence than the physical Universe requires no hoops. :)
 
Agreed on Science and God. Unless it takes place inside the Natural Universe, science can’t study it and, therefore, won’t even try. A point some atheists and theists don’t seem to comprehend.

But presumably God does act in the natural world. Why are there believers?
 
Disagreed you are attempting honest debate, that you haven’t attacked others and that you are not a hypocrite.

OTOH, I believe you truly believe your own claims, as irrational as they might be.

It kind of feels like you take any disagreement as a personal affront. That is not my intention but I understand if that is how you have perceived it.

I will ask you to look up inferential statistics to get a better explanation of how scientists approach questions like this. Clearly I have been unable to explain it sufficiently to you.
 
To me, that's just another dodge. You can ask how the universe was created, but I can't ask how the creator was created?

My point is this. Just because I don't know something, it does not mean that all possible outcomes are equally probable. I don't know how the universe started, but the God answer is not on equal footing with the natural answer. Because the natural answer has explained every single thing we understand. There are no exceptions. I don't know if I'll win the lottery, but the 'no' outcome seems much more likely.

I don’t know is a dodge? Fascinating. The fact you want to assume Space-Time existed prior to the creation of the Universe and beyond our Universe is without supporting evidence. I go with the scientists who state that Space-Time began with the creation of our Universe. YMMV.

https://www.exactlywhatistime.com/physics-of-time/time-and-the-big-bang/
The general view of physicists is that time started at a specific point about 13.8 billion years ago with the Big Bang, when the entire universe suddenly expanded out of an infinitely hot, infinitely dense singularity, a point where the laws of physics as we understand them simply break down. This can be considered the “birth” of the universe, and the beginning of time as we know it. Before the Big Bang, there just was no space or time, and you cannot go further back in time than the Big Bang, in much the same way as you cannot go any further north than the North Pole.

As theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking notes in his 1988 book A Brief History of Time, even if time did not begin with the Big Bang, and there was another time frame before it, no information is available to us from that earlier time-frame, and any events that occurred then would have no effect on our present time-frame. Any putative events from before the Big Bang can therefore be considered effectively meaningless (or at least the province of philosophical speculation, not physics).
 
But presumably God does act in the natural world. Why are there believers?
People are funny; they believe all sorts of things without evidence such as you amply demonstrate on these threads. Others believe in ghosts, demons, telekinesis, etc.
 
It kind of feels like you take any disagreement as a personal affront. That is not my intention but I understand if that is how you have perceived it.

I will ask you to look up inferential statistics to get a better explanation of how scientists approach questions like this. Clearly I have been unable to explain it sufficiently to you.
I’m not. In fact, I’m having fun poking at the chinks in your armor. :)

I’m fine, but thanks. Nice try on your part to run from your cow analogies. :thup:
 
You put me on IGNORE (if you actually did) because I was making you look like the fool you are...not because I am not very bright.

I am bright enough to hand you your ass...and that is what is gnawing at you.
She claims to either hate people and/or put them on ignore. It’s one of the reasons why I think she’s under 30.
 
She claims to either hate people and/or put them on ignore. It’s one of the reasons why I think she’s under 30.

Okay.

I want to take this opportunity to say that I do not hate anyone...not even people for whom I do not have much, if any, respect. Trump comes to mind. I DO NOT HATE TRUMP, even though I consider him the worst president this country has ever had.

I also do not hate any of the people with whom I am in complete disagreement on the issues which we discuss here.
 
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You are confusing mankind’s perception of God with whatever force actually created the Universe.

If God wanted everyone to be happy, then why are we here?

I believe the questions are just as important as the answers.

Bad questions lead nowhere.
Great questions lead to new insights and new perspectives.


Why doesn't some god force us to be happy? is a terrible question.

Happiness is a fleeting, ephemeral state of euphoria. I don't think I would want to be in a state of euphoria all the time. Challenges and obstacles are the greatest teachers.

Whatever is was that infused us free will and human conciousness gave the power to find meaning and fullfillment in our lives, should we choose to exercise it. That is exactly what the great religious thinkers and philosophers have been talking about for three thousand years.

Now that is a great question - how do we find meaning and purpose in life?
 
I’m not. In fact, I’m having fun poking at the chinks in your armor. :)

I’m fine, but thanks. Nice try on your part to run from your cow analogies. :thup:

Here's a concrete example: is there a real slope to this line? It is fitting the data in the graph. Let's say scientists are looking to see if X somehow impacts Y. So they collect the data.

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The scientist starts off with the assumption that this is not a real slope even though it looks like one. The null hypothesis is "THERE IS NO SLOPE" (Alternately "X is NOT correlated with Y"). They then run an F-Test on the regression. See the little sign in red at the top? That's the result of the F-test. It just so happens that the p-value (the probability of getting an F-value higher than a certain critical point) is 0.25.

This basically tells you that the slope is not a real slope, that X is not correlated with Y. It has no significance.. The reason it LOOKS real to us is because it is random chance based on the noise in the data, not on the relationship between X and Y.

The scientist then says "There is no reason to reject the null hypothesis".

As such the null stands: there is no slope.



As such, there is no slope. It is simple random noise and of no value.
 
The Universe was created and has clear rules for operation. We all must live within those rules. People who don’t either end up dead, hurt or in a mental ward.

The universe exists, is a more accurate statement. We have no evidence at this time of an entity causing the Big Bang.
 
That there was a natural process that occurred. One we don't understand.

What is the explanation for who made God? Seems like the universe would have been a lot easier job. And who was GOD'S watchmaker? Where did HE come from?

'I don't know' is the right answer. 'God did it' is the wrong answer. It's lazy. No need to figure it out or question how it happened, God did it. Will I win the lottery tonight? I don't know. But I can certainly take a pretty damn educated guess.

In Taoist belief, the Tao always existed and always will exist. The Tao is the source of everything, all potentialities, all energies.

That makes as much sense to me as a universe just blinking into existence for absolutely no reason.
 
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