A Theology Question

[Melchizedek = Michael]

It comes down to the same thing every time.
Yes a guy name Jesus existed.
Whether he was YHWH incarnate in the flesh the living son of God is the real question.
The Jews ASSUMED the Messiah would come to free them from Rome occupation. They had no idea that he had come to free them from sin.
Whether you chose to accept the free gift of salvation for your sins is up to each of us.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

According to Wiki the boys were aged 15 to 17; young adults really, not children. They almost had certainly already been inculcated with adult western values for many years prior to being marooned for 15 months.

I don't really see that as an experiment to just let small children grow up without any moral instruction whatsoever or decent role models to see if the lessons of ethical righteousness in the Bhagavad-Gita and the Sermon on the Plain are just hardwired into their DNA

Unless the area was plentiful in food and water, a lack of predators and other dangers, younger children would be unlikely to survive for long.

OTOH, I have read studies of monkeys raised in a sterile environment. The first one listed here: https://www.verywellmind.com/classic-psychology-experiments-2795257

In a series of controversial experiments conducted in the late 1950s and early 1960s, psychologist Harry Harlow demonstrated the powerful effects of love on normal development. By showing the devastating effects of deprivation on young rhesus monkeys, Harlow revealed the importance of love for healthy childhood development.

His experiments were often unethical and shockingly cruel, yet they uncovered fundamental truths that have heavily influenced our understanding of child development.

In one famous version of the experiments, infant monkeys were separated from their mothers immediately after birth and placed in an environment where they had access to either a wire monkey "mother" or a version of the faux-mother covered in a soft-terry cloth. While the wire mother provided food, the cloth mother provided only softness and comfort.

Harlow found that while the infant monkeys would go to the wire mother for food, they vastly preferred the company of the soft and comforting cloth mother. The study demonstrated that maternal bonds1 were about much more than simply providing nourishment and that comfort and security played a major role in the formation of attachments.

The ethics of such experiments is questioned even with animals, much less humans. This is why modern behavioral scientists like twin studies: cases were identical twins are separated at birth and raised in different environments.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/twins/twins-behavioral-science-research
Twins in Behavioral Science Research

The information gathered from the study of twins lays the groundwork for future genetic research, including the degree to which any aspects of life are determined by genetics, the location of specific genes, and the prevention and treatment of diseases and disorders. All of which makes them valuable to study.

Twins share everything from their in-utero environment and parents to birthdate and the classroom setting. One unusual case study involved two-and-a-half years old identical twins, one of whom nearly drowned in cold lake water. Researchers wondered whether he would suffer intellectual deficits. Later, the twins completed a number of tests that measured different skills. Surprisingly, meaningful cognitive differences between the two brothers were not found.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Specifically, among Trumpers; full grown men acting like selfish teenagers threatening to burn the house down if they don't get their way.

Although not daily, I'm getting to observe the theories in action by watching my grandkids grow up. Mostly I'm relearning the old observation "By adult standards, all children are insane".

The youngest may be special needs although that hasn't been confirmed by his parents who were in late-30s at his birth. I'm trying to differentiate between "special needs" and "spoiled" as the baby. He does have a strong astigmatism(?) issue and his mother is overprotective.

I think that lying is an interesting topic to discuss from a political and moral POV. Look at how many RW shills we have here. Stinker and pEarl are great examples. They think absolutely nothing about lying in their posts, whether it's a groundless claim that Biden is a pedophile, or that Trump is the best president we've ever had, or the moon landing was fake, or Democrats are "grooming" children sexually. They KNOW this shit is not true, yet they feel compelled to post it on a daily basis. The Trumpers follow a cult leader who lies on a daily basis. They publicly see nothing wrong with that because it gets whatever results they want, they believe. During the pandemic, we had multiple RWers here proclaiming that the vaccines don't work/are poison, lies about Fauci, masks don't work and the mandate to wear one in public was akin to the Nazi trains to concentration camps, the pandemic is a hoax, etc. etc. Most of them knew none of this was true, yet they continued to push misinformation, and quite likely caused many more people to catch the virus and die than otherwise would have occurred. The LW has its share of lying pundits and those who willfully spread the crap, but they don't seem nearly as vociferous -- or malignant -- as the Reichwingers. Yet most of the RWers claim to be devout Xtians, and some declare that LWers are all "godless atheists."

 

[Cypress]

Unless the area was plentiful in food and water, a lack of predators and other dangers, younger children would be unlikely to survive for long.

OTOH, I have read studies of monkeys raised in a sterile environment. The first one listed here: https://www.verywellmind.com/classic-psychology-experiments-2795257




The ethics of such experiments is questioned even with animals, much less humans. This is why modern behavioral scientists like twin studies: cases were identical twins are separated at birth and raised in different environments.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/twins/twins-behavioral-science-research
Twins in Behavioral Science Research

An experiment could easily be run where young children are given the material resources, to survive but given absolutely no moral instruction or provided good role models.


I don't even see how this is a debate. We all are constantly aware of children who are the victims of bad parenting; they don't get receive proper moral instruction and are not provided good role models

 

[Ross Dolan]

It comes down to the same thing every time.
Yes a guy name Jesus existed.
Whether he was YHWH incarnate in the flesh the living son of God is the real question.
The Jews ASSUMED the Messiah would come to free them from Rome occupation. They had no idea that he had come to free them from sin.
Whether you chose to accept the free gift of salvation for your sins is up to each of us.

More importantly (and something to which you unreasonably give short shrift) is that everyone is free to blindly guess that there is a god that is so touchy and demanding...that damn near everything any human does offends it. THAT is sin...offending that god. And the god decided that he would forgive humans for offending him by not meeting his fucking absurd standards...but only if they first were willing to torture and kill (its) son.

The god is a barbarian. If the god were a human demanding and doing what it does...people would be clamoring to have it institutionalized.

Wake the hell up.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Do you see ANY role whatsoever to biology in establishing a "moral framework" by which a social animal exists?

Of course there's a role. Social, cooperative species like dolphins, humans, wolves/dogs, some primates, some avians, etc. have evolved to survive by living in groups and engaging in mutually-beneficial ways with each other. Wolf packs have rules of behavior just as do birds and humans. If a member violates a rule, they are swiftly corrected by being nipped or even ostracized for various periods of times. Without cooperation and rules, a group would soon lose its cohesiveness, and the members would risk outside harm -- starvation, predation.

 

[Ross Dolan]

An experiment could easily be run where young children are given the material resources, to survive but given absolutely no moral instruction or provided good role models.


I don't even see how this is a debate. We all are constantly aware of children who are the victims of bad parenting; they don't get receive proper moral instruction and are not provided good role models

I'd sooner take morality lessons from Hannibal Lecter as from the god of the Bible.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I think that lying is an interesting topic to discuss from a political and moral POV. Look at how many RW shills we have here. Stinker and pEarl are great examples. They think absolutely nothing about lying in their posts, whether it's a groundless claim that Biden is a pedophile, or that Trump is the best president we've ever had, or the moon landing was fake, or Democrats are "grooming" children sexually. They KNOW this shit is not true, yet they feel compelled to post it on a daily basis. The Trumpers follow a cult leader who lies on a daily basis. They publicly see nothing wrong with that because it gets whatever results they want, they believe. During the pandemic, we had multiple RWers here proclaiming that the vaccines don't work/are poison, lies about Fauci, masks don't work and the mandate to wear one in public was akin to the Nazi trains to concentration camps, the pandemic is a hoax, etc. etc. Most of them knew none of this was true, yet they continued to push misinformation, and quite likely caused many more people to catch the virus and die than otherwise would have occurred. The LW has its share of lying pundits and those who willfully spread the crap, but they don't seem nearly as vociferous -- or malignant -- as the Reichwingers. Yet most of the RWers claim to be devout Xtians, and some declare that LWers are all "godless atheists."

Are they lying or are they mentally ill to the point of delusional? Is there any doubt most of them really believe their conspiracy theories about 9/11, the Moon and such?

That mostly covers JPP Trumpers; the vast majority who are elderly, demented, poorly educated, cowardly and pussified Bud Light drinking Euro-American males. This doesn't excuse the Republican leadership and agencies like Fox News which intentionally twist the truth, if not outright lie, to the public as a form of manipulation.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Of course there's a role. Social, cooperative species like dolphins, humans, wolves/dogs, some primates, some avians, etc. have evolved to survive by living in groups and engaging in mutually-beneficial ways with each other. Wolf packs have rules of behavior just as do birds and humans. If a member violates a rule, they are swiftly corrected by being nipped or even ostracized for various periods of times. Without cooperation and rules, a group would soon lose its cohesiveness, and the members would risk outside harm -- starvation, predation.

That's been my primary point. That, indeed, these actions form the basis of morality. No one thinks a wellfed housecat that kills a songbird is acting "immorally". Morality is the veneer we place on those actions which maintain a stable social network that provides a survival advantage to all the members. Opprobrium is heaped on those members which do not follow the "rules".

I see the value of moral philosophers to developing a superstructure on top of that which brings in some of the unique levels of self-awareness that our particular brand of primate has, but I don't feel that they established the morality per se. The morality infrastructure grows out of the biological imperatives. IMHO.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Are they lying or are they mentally ill to the point of delusional? Is there any doubt most of them really believe their conspiracy theories about 9/11, the Moon and such?

That mostly covers JPP Trumpers; the vast majority who are elderly, demented, poorly educated, cowardly and pussified Bud Light drinking Euro-American males. This doesn't excuse the Republican leadership and agencies like Fox News which intentionally twist the truth, if not outright lie, to the public as a form of manipulation.

Most of them are deliberately lying. pEarl, as one example, bans everyone who counters his propaganda from replying with factual information. Others just fly into a invective-filled rage when their lies are challenged. I would agree with you that many of the 9/11 truthers and believers in other nutso conspiracy crap have a lot of elements of mental illness. Certainly that would include COgoat and H10.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

An experiment could easily be run where young children are given the material resources, to survive but given absolutely no moral instruction or provided good role models.


I don't even see how this is a debate. We all are constantly aware of children who are the victims of bad parenting; they don't get receive proper moral instruction and are not provided good role models

Like the Hamas children below? I suspect their parents truly believe they are both raising their children morally and are being good role models.

 

[Cypress]

I think that lying is an interesting topic to discuss from a political and moral POV. Look at how many RW shills we have here. Stinker and pEarl are great examples. They think absolutely nothing about lying in their posts, whether it's a groundless claim that Biden is a pedophile, or that Trump is the best president we've ever had, or the moon landing was fake, or Democrats are "grooming" children sexually. They KNOW this shit is not true, yet they feel compelled to post it on a daily basis. The Trumpers follow a cult leader who lies on a daily basis. They publicly see nothing wrong with that because it gets whatever results they want, they believe. During the pandemic, we had multiple RWers here proclaiming that the vaccines don't work/are poison, lies about Fauci, masks don't work and the mandate to wear one in public was akin to the Nazi trains to concentration camps, the pandemic is a hoax, etc. etc. Most of them knew none of this was true, yet they continued to push misinformation, and quite likely caused many more people to catch the virus and die than otherwise would have occurred. The LW has its share of lying pundits and those who willfully spread the crap, but they don't seem nearly as vociferous -- or malignant -- as the Reichwingers. Yet most of the RWers claim to be devout Xtians, and some declare that LWers are all "godless atheists."

I'm almost certain that Donald Trump's father never taught his son the moral imperative that maintaining integrity and honor meant never lying, always keeping your word, and treating people how you would like to be treated.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

I'm almost certain that Donald Trump's father never taught his son the moral imperative that maintaining integrity and honor meant never lying, always keeping your word, and treating people how you would like to be treated.

Is it your contention that psychopathy is the lack of moral training by another person?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Most of them are deliberately lying. pEarl, as one example, bans everyone who counters his propaganda from replying with factual information. Others just fly into a invective-filled rage when their lies are challenged. I would agree with you that many of the 9/11 truthers and believers in other nutso conspiracy crap have a lot of elements of mental illness. Certainly that would include COgoat and H10.

Maybe he knows some of his posts are lies, but I have no doubt that Captain Earl, ex-USAF, has mental issues just like his friends....the ones who are allowed to participate in his threads.

One of the few Trumpers on JPP who I consider to be "normal" and just a fat liar is Stone. He's simply malicious, not mental. There might be one or two more, but IMO, most are a brick or two short of a load. Primarily due to elderly cognitive issues.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I'm almost certain that Donald Trump's father never taught his son the moral imperative that maintaining integrity and honor meant never lying, always keeping your word, and treating people how you would like to be treated.

Agreed. Pedo Don's daddy taught him to be ruthless and to value money above all other things. Look at the JPP Trumpers who share the same values.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

I'm almost certain that Donald Trump's father never taught his son the moral imperative that maintaining integrity and honor meant never lying, always keeping your word, and treating people how you would like to be treated.

Would it have done any good if he had? I used to be part of a family that was Trumpian and cult-like in its devotion to each other, but when it came to outsiders (which included the in-laws), anything went. As a consequence, a handful of family members had life-long issues dealing with coworkers, neighbors, even spouses and their extended family members. Their stage of moral development was stuck at the "it's okay if I don't get caught" level. It's interesting that while Ivanka gives the appearance of being a typical moral person overall, definitely the two sons think nothing of lying, cheating, grifting -- just like their father.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed. Pedo Don's daddy taught him to be ruthless and to value money above all other things. Look at the JPP Trumpers who share the same values.

So the ethical imperatives of unwavering honesty, humility, respect for other humans, temperance, and mercy are not hard wired into Trump's DNA and do not tug relentlessly at his conscience.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Would it have done any good if he had? I used to be part of a family that was Trumpian and cult-like in its devotion to each other, but when it came to outsiders (which included the in-laws), anything went. As a consequence, a handful of family members had life-long issues dealing with coworkers, neighbors, even spouses and their extended family members. Their stage of moral development was stuck at the "it's okay if I don't get caught" level. It's interesting that while Ivanka gives the appearance of being a typical moral person overall, definitely the two sons think nothing of lying, cheating, grifting -- just like their father.

Trump's dad definitely was a bit of a tool and that passed onto Don. But Donald's brother (the pilot who died an alcoholic) was older and failed to have sufficient of the "killer instinct" that Donald had and as such didn't benefit as the heir apparent to Fred's empire. Donald, on the other hand, was apparently as or more psychopathic than his father and as such was the heir apparent.

Given that both boys had the same parentage I don't think we can draw conclusions about Fred's ability to form a psychopath as opposed to Fred being able to find the psychopath in his brood and nurture that.

There's obviously a nurture part in the nature v nurture, but I'm really uncomfortable with the idea that nature cannot be part of the equation as some other posters seem to be saying.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

So the ethical imperatives of unwavering honesty, humility, respect for other humans, temperance, and mercy are not hard wired into Trump's DNA and do not tug relentlessly at his conscience.

Why can't one be born with a broken "moral system" (ie no sense of "the other" or compassion/sympathy/empathy for "the other")?

I'm not saying Fred Trump DIDN'T inculcate a psychopathic aspect to Donald, he most assuredly did. But I think Donald (as opposed to his older brother) came pre-wired to be more psychopathic and as such became the heir apparent to Fred's empire.

Nature AND nurture. Not one or the other.

 

[Melchizedek = Michael]

More importantly (and something to which you unreasonably give short shrift) is that everyone is free to blindly guess that there is a god that is so touchy and demanding...that damn near everything any human does offends it. THAT is sin...offending that god. And the god decided that he would forgive humans for offending him by not meeting his fucking absurd standards...but only if they first were willing to torture and kill (its) son.

The god is a barbarian. If the god were a human demanding and doing what it does...people would be clamoring to have it institutionalized.

Wake the hell up.

Every time you say "blindly" it never dawns on you,that you're the one blind!