A Theology Question

Manfred Mason said:
Few have morality when it's inconvenient !
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That's very true. Which is why we see things like the family that owns Hobby Lobby worshipping mammon, lying to the public, encouraging theft of antiquities, supporting atheist governments for the goods they sell, all while wrapping themselves in their firmly held Christian Faith.
 
Quincunx said:
That's very true. Which is why we see things like the family that owns Hobby Lobby worshipping mammon, lying to the public, encouraging theft of antiquities, supporting atheist governments for the goods they sell, all while wrapping themselves in their firmly held Christian Faith.
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Many so called Evangelical Christians worship this Messiah!
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Would it have done any good if he had? I used to be part of a family that was Trumpian and cult-like in its devotion to each other, but when it came to outsiders (which included the in-laws), anything went. As a consequence, a handful of family members had life-long issues dealing with coworkers, neighbors, even spouses and their extended family members. Their stage of moral development was stuck at the "it's okay if I don't get caught" level. It's interesting that while Ivanka gives the appearance of being a typical moral person overall, definitely the two sons think nothing of lying, cheating, grifting -- just like their father.
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The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, does it? There can always be a bad seed in a virtuous family, but the fact that the Obama and Carter children turned out differently than the Trump children tells me we cannot just rely on the theory that the lessons of moral righteousness are simply hard wired into DNA.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Would it have done any good if he had? I used to be part of a family that was Trumpian and cult-like in its devotion to each other, but when it came to outsiders (which included the in-laws), anything went. As a consequence, a handful of family members had life-long issues dealing with coworkers, neighbors, even spouses and their extended family members. Their stage of moral development was stuck at the "it's okay if I don't get caught" level. It's interesting that while Ivanka gives the appearance of being a typical moral person overall, definitely the two sons think nothing of lying, cheating, grifting -- just like their father.
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Ivanka is clearly smarter and more moral than her two brothers put together, but that's a low bar for that side of the Trump family. Part of the difference, IMO, is her being both female and a mother*; genetically more predisposed to nurturing.

*three kids, all 12 or younger.
 
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Cypress said:
The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, does it? There can always be a bad seed in a virtuous family, but the fact that the Obama and Carter children turned out differently than the Trump children tells me we cannot just rely on the theory that the lessons of moral righteousness are simply hard wired into DNA.
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It is fascinating that you are ignoring the case of Donald's older brother who doesn't seem to have been wired quite the same as DJT. But I understand it is inconvenient for the discussion.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I'd sooner take morality lessons from Hannibal Lecter as from the god of the Bible.
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I don't think ethics come from God.

But they are articulated in the world's important religious texts, which are obviously the literary works of men.

Outside of the books of Torah God doesn't play a direct and active role in most of the Old Testament and is completely absent from the New Testament. To the extent most of the lessons of moral righteousness are expressed in the bible, they mostly come from the Jewish prophets, and the teachings of Jesus
 
Cypress said:
The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, does it? There can always be a bad seed in a virtuous family, but the fact that the Obama and Carter children turned out differently than the Trump children tells me we cannot just rely on the theory that the lessons of moral righteousness are simply hard wired into DNA.
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Sorry, but I think that's a false conclusion. Kids often grow up to follow in the footsteps of their parents.

Examples; Joseph was a carpenter and so was Jesus. Actor's children often grow up and go into show business, lawyer's children often grow up and become lawyers. That's not DNA, that's culture. Nurturing.

IMO, the reason the Trump's grew up to be more immoral than the Carters is because that's the family culture, not DNA. If we were talking about a family of marathon runners or baseball stars, I'd more readily agree there is a genetic component. Same for theoretical physicists or other high IQ careers. However, on average, I put more weight on nurturing.

Consider Euro-American middle class parents who adopt babies from Asia or African. That negates the genetic component. Do you think the kids will grow up more successful in that environment than if left in a lower income or Third World shithole environment? I do because it's a more nurturing environment.
 
Manfred Mason said:
But you don't believe the God of the Bible exist!:thinking:
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I do not "believe" the god of the Bible exists...

...and I do not "believe" the god of the Bible does not exist.

I simply have no "beliefs" on the matter...mostly because any "beliefs" in either direction are nothing more than blind guesses.

It makes no sense to blindly guess about it. Especially if you are going to argue about it.
 
Cypress said:
I don't think ethics come from God.

But they are articulated in the world's important religious texts, which are obviously the literary works of men.

Outside of the books of Torah God doesn't play a direct and active role in most of the Old Testament and is completely absent from the New Testament. To the extent most of the lessons of moral righteousness are expressed in the bible, they mostly come from the Jewish prophets, and the teachings of Jesus
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I think anyone who is even remotely familiar with Christianity would NOT say God is "completely absent" from the NT. Maybe it's just because I was originally a Christian and I am familiar with the Trinity as well as the number of times Christ refers to the "Father". Indeed per Christian thought Jesus is homoousios with God and as such literally everything Christ says in the Bible comes from God himself.
 
Frank Apisa said:
I do not "believe" the god of the Bible exists...

...and I do not "believe" the god of the Bible does not exist.

I simply have no "beliefs" on the matter...mostly because any "beliefs" in either direction are nothing more than blind guesses.

It makes no sense to blindly guess about it. Especially if you are going to argue about it.
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Oh I see! You don't know shit about anything and just troll for shits and giggles!
 
Quincunx said:
Do you see ANY role whatsoever to biology in establishing a "moral framework" by which a social animal exists?
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I have stated previously and been crystal clear that there are natural instincts that cause us to want to help siblings, children, parents, and a natural urge to refrain from murdering members of your own tribe or family.

^ That's the lowest bar possible to clear in terms of cultivating and living an ethical human life as we have come to understand it.

You shouldn't even really get a pat on the back for helping your sister or restraining the urge to stab your tribal peers in the neck with a spear.
 
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