Alexis de Tocqueville: Democracy and Christianity

BidenPresident said:
You're just a tiresome idiot!
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Again, the topic is not your psychological trauma of being dragged to a fundamentalist church by your parents, nor is it about whether Christian churches engaged in injustices (they did), nor is it even about Christianity being directly responsible for the creation of democratic institutions (it wasn't).

After 14 pages of responses, I have seen no credible explanations for the issues and questions actually raised.

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...ocracy-and-Christianity&p=4604122#post4604122
 
Cypress said:
You need to respond to what I actually wrote, not to what you wish I wrote.

I said explicitly, transparently, and on several occasions that neither Christianity nor the Protestant Reformation were directly responsible for the emergence of democratic traditions.
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I've responded. I gave you my opinion.
The Question that springs up is 'Why do you keep promoting Christianity?'.
I can only think you were brainwashed as a child, and are now in conflict with actual 'Science' and your 'Religion'.
 
Jack said:
I've responded. I gave you my opinion.
The Question that springs up is 'Why do you keep promoting Christianity?'.
I can only think you were brainwashed as a child, and are now in conflict with actual 'Science' and your 'Religion'.
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Bed of Procrustes. Cypress think all philosophy and science and history support Christianity.
 
Religious zealots think anyone who rejects their religion cannot possibly have understood it. They keep trying to explain the religion and show how it is not possible to understand it and not convert.
 
BidenPresident said:
Jack and myself responded. Just because you disagree does not mean we did not respond to what you wrote.
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your first attempts to respond to this thread were intentionally cynical attempts to conflate Christianity to Adolph Hitler ans and Nazi Fascism.

Your attempts at participating were never intended to be genuinely serious or intelligent.

The Enlightenment cannot explain the incipient democratic traditions which were emerging long before the 18th century enlightenment.

No one has offered a believable explanation for why liberal democratic traditions failed to germinate in Hindi, Confucian, Islamic, Buddhist, Animist civilizations. Or even Eastern Christianity for that matter.

One cannot talk about history without weighing in on religious, cultural, and economic issues.

If a thread that happens to bring in a social context of European Christianity into a historical analysis makes you irate, that would appear to be related to psychological baggage you are carrying.
 
BidenPresident said:
Jack and myself responded. Just because you disagree does not mean we did not respond to what you wrote.
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your first attempts to respond to this thread were intentionally cynical incendiary attempts to conflate Christianity to Adolph Hitler ans and Nazi Fascism.

Your attempts at participating were never intended to be genuinely serious or intelligent.

The Enlightenment cannot explain the incipient democratic traditions which were emerging long before the 18th century enlightenment.

No one has offered a believable explanation for why liberal democratic traditions failed to germinate in Hindi, Confucian, Islamic, Buddhist, Animist civilizations. Or even Eastern Christianity for that matter.

One cannot talk about history without weighing in on religious, cultural, and economic issues.

If a thread that happens to bring in a social context of European Christianity into a historical analysis makes you irate, that would appear to be related to psychological baggage you are carrying.
 
Cypress said:
your first attempts to respond to this thread were intentionally cynical incendiary attempts to conflate Christianity to Adolph Hitler ans and Nazi Fascism.

Your attempts at participating were never intended to be genuinely serious or intelligent.

The Enlightenment cannot explain the incipient democratic traditions which were emerging long before the 18th century enlightenment.

No one has offered a believable explanation for why liberal democratic traditions failed to germinate in Hindi, Confucian, Islamic, Buddhist, Animist civilizations. Or even Eastern Christianity for that matter.

One cannot talk about history without weighing in on religious, cultural, and economic issues.

If a thread that happens to bring in a social context of European Christianity into a historical analysis makes you irate, that would appear to be related to psychological baggage you are carrying.
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Ancient Greece and Democracy were brought up. The Magna Carta was brought up. The Renaissance and the Age of Reason were brought up.
:) You're like a broken record, dismissing anything other than your own rhetoric.
 
Jack said:
Ancient Greece and Democracy were brought up. The Magna Carta was brought up. The Renaissance and the Age of Reason were brought up.
:) You're like a broken record, dismissing anything other than your own rhetoric.
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Already responded to ancient greece and Magna Carta

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...ocracy-and-Christianity&p=4602331#post4602331

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...ocracy-and-Christianity&p=4604131#post4604131

Furthermore, Eastern Christianity had longer, deeper, and more consistent ties to ancient Greek thought than western Europe -- because of Eastern Europe's historical linkage to Greco-Byzantine culture. But democracy did not germinate in eastern Europe or under the social context of Eastern Orthodoxy.

So you cannot simply point to knowlege of Athens as the reason for the emergence of democratic traditions in the west.
 
Cypress said:
Already responded to ancient greece and Magna Carta

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...ocracy-and-Christianity&p=4602331#post4602331

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...ocracy-and-Christianity&p=4604131#post4604131

Furthermore, Eastern Christianity had longer, deeper, and more consistent ties to ancient Greek thought than western Europe -- because of Eastern Europe's historical linkage to Greco-Byzantine culture. But democracy did not germinate in eastern Europe or under the social context of Eastern Orthodoxy.

So you cannot simply point to knowlege of Athens as the reason for the emergence of democratic traditions in the west.
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Cypress: "Furthermore, Eastern Christianity had longer, deeper, and more consistent ties to ancient Greek thought than western Europe -- because of Eastern Europe's historical linkage to Greco-Byzantine culture. But democracy did not germinate in eastern Europe or under the social context of Eastern Orthodoxy."

Jack: So ... we both agree 'Christianity' had nothing to do with it.
 
Jack said:
Cypress: "Furthermore, Eastern Christianity had longer, deeper, and more consistent ties to ancient Greek thought than western Europe -- because of Eastern Europe's historical linkage to Greco-Byzantine culture. But democracy did not germinate in eastern Europe or under the social context of Eastern Orthodoxy."

Jack: So ... we both agree 'Christianity' had nothing to do with it.
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I have openly, repeatedly, and transparently stated that the Protestant Reformation played some indirect role in the germination of incipient democratic traditions.

Are you aware that European Protestantism is not the same as Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism?


I have also previously stated that Catholicism and Eastern Christianity do not generally strike me as having a social context which would allow democratic traditions to germinate.
 
Cypress said:
I have openly, repeatedly, and transparently stated that the Protestant Reformation played some indirect role in the germination of incipient democratic traditions.

Are you aware that European Protestantism is not the same as Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism?


I have also previously stated that Catholicism and Eastern Christianity do not generally strike me as having a social context which would allow democratic traditions to germinate.
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Good. We can now move on to Part 2.

Which came first:
a. The Magna Carta.
b. The Protestant Reformation.
 
My two cents:

The ultimate emergence of democratic traditions uniquely in Western Europe relied on a confluence of events, not on one single event

-Recovery of literacy and Greek thought by Benedictine monks and Catholic Universities,
-Protestant Reformation
-Glorious Revolution
-Age of Reason
- Enlightenment
-Romantic Age

-And stumbling across the finish line with the abolitionist, women's suffrage, and civil rights movements.
 
Cypress said:
Already addressed
https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...ocracy-and-Christianity&p=4602331#post4602331
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So ... we both agree that the Magna Carta was NOT influenced by the Protestant Reformation.


"Magna Carta, English Great Charter, charter of English liberties granted by King John on June 15, 1215, under threat of civil war and reissued, with alterations, in 1216, 1217, and 1225. By declaring the sovereign to be subject to the rule of law and documenting the liberties held by “free men,” the Magna Carta provided the foundation for individual rights in Anglo-American jurisprudence."
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Magna-Carta
 
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