Are values purely subjective?

[Cypress]

No they are all morals however they all boil down to one basic moral imperative, thou shall not steal. Everyone of them is about not taking what rightly belongs to others.

Keeping the Sabbath holy is not a moral imperative, it is a rule of Hebrew ritual.
An injunction against stealing and murder is more like a criminal code.

Being able to restrain yourself from murdering and stealing is the absolute lowest possible moral bar to clear. That bar is set so low it barely clears the ground.

 

[Yakuda]

Keeping the Sabbath holy is not a moral imperative, it is a rule of Hebrew ritual.
An injunction against stealing and murder is more like a criminal code.

Being able to restrain yourself from murdering and stealing is the absolute lowest possible moral bar to clear. That bar is set so low it barely clears the ground.

You have a very concrete and limited view of all those things. You think murder is only taking someone's s life or stealing just taking their property. It's no wonder we've fallen so far into moral relativism. Learned ignorance as Chomsky said.

 

[Cypress]

You have a very concrete and limited view of all those things. You think murder is only taking someone's s life or stealing just taking their property. It's no wonder we've fallen so far into moral relativism. Learned ignorance as Chomsky said.

You can use sophistry if you want to read something into the ten commandments you believe is lurking beneath the surface.

In this case, I think the simplest thing to do is read the plain written word of the ten commandments.

At any rate, some of the Decalogue cannot possibly be considered universal. Keeping the Sabbath holy and having no other gods before Yahweh is strictly Hebrew ritual law.

 

[Cypress]

This is my proof that there is an objective value in beauty, which humans percieve.

Even if we no longer existed as a species, we would still think a universe with the Alps mountains, the Grand Canyon, Yosemite Valley is a superior universe than a universe that is opaque, dark, colorless. That means we think there in an intrinsic and objective value in beauty.

 

[Yakuda]

You can use sophistry if you want to read something into the ten commandments you believe is lurking beneath the surface.

In this case, I think the simplest thing to do is read the plain written word of the ten commandments.

At any rate, some of the Decalogue cannot possibly be considered universal. Keeping the Sabbath holy and having no other gods before Yahweh is strictly Hebrew ritual law.

It's funny what some people decide to take literally vs what they dont.

Everything you said was universal is there in the 10 commandments

 

[Into the Night]

G.E. Moore's Principia Ethica gives three thought experiments that suggest there is an objective side to value beyond the purely subjective.

A value is purely objective. It is specific. It is a number with a unit of measurement.

A first argument is that beauty can have an intrinsic value, even if no one is around to see it.

Beauty has not unit of measurement. It is not a value.

A universe that lacks any conciousness, but has the grand canyon, sunsets, waterfalls is still better than an opaque and colorless universe.

The universe has no unit of measurement. It is not a value.

Moore claims this shows beauty has an intrinsic objective value, even if no one is around to see it.

If no one makes a measurement, there is no value measured.

The second argument is the magic button thought experiment. You have a choice to push a button which will convert us all into brains in a vat where Matrix type technology creates the neural experience for all of us of a living a pleasant best-possible digital pseudo-life. Moore says very few people would push the button because there is an intrinsic and object value to having contact with reality.

BOTH are reality. You should really study phenomenology, which defines words like 'reality' and gives the reasoning behind that definition.

The third argument is the principle of organic unities. The case in which a person takes pleasure in a child's pain. The fact that someone takes pleasure in anothers pain does not mean the value of the whole is simply the value of the pleasure minus the pain. This kind of pleasure is morally tainted, what matters is the objective nature of the relationship between the two sensations. Here again, there is an objective side to values.

Sicko moral behavior has no unit of measurement. It is not a value.

 

[Into the Night]

Yes values are purely subjective. We decide what matters.

While we each decide what matters to us, a value is objective. It is a specific number.

 

[Into the Night]

You can decide to abuse a child, or choose to break promises to businesses partners and spouses, but society will typically hold you accountable because you would be violating widely held universal values pretty much all human cultures hold as a standard.

You are accountable for ALL of your decisions, both good and bad.

If you keep promises to business partners, you will be held accountable for that as well, for example. You gain trust with them.

There is no universal 'standard'. That said, some have offered guides to improve your life and the lives of others, including Jesus Christ, Buddah, George Washington, James Madison, various priests and monks, scientists, engineers, etc.

 

[Into the Night]

So let me inquire what do you see as the difference between values and morals?

He's trying to call 'morals' a value.

 

[Into the Night]

Standards of behavior or expectations that some social norms are of great importance. Probably some significant overlap with ethics.

The expectation to keep your promises is a universal value.

No. If you don't keep your 'promises', they aren't a promise.

 

[Into the Night]

Universal values aren't supposed to come with a guarantee that everyone, everywhere, and all times will meet the expectations.

What they do is set a universal standard society agrees we should shoot for.

People who break promises or take pleasure in abusing children are almost universally regarded as assholes because they are violating a universal ethical standard.

So, since you support abortion (the murder of children for convenience) and indoctrination in schools rather than education and forcing kids to wear masks, that means you are an asshole? You are violating a universal ethical standard?

 

[Yakuda]

He's trying to call 'morals' a value.

I know but he can't admit it.

 

[Cypress]

I know but he can't admit it.

Was already addressed way back in post 8.

Values can be anything you value and think is important in life.

This can include morals, but can also include things that aren't conventionally thought of as morals.

Beauty, courage, pleasure are not typically thought of as morals, though they can be considered values or virtues

 

[Into the Night]

Was already addressed way back in post 8.

Values can be anything you value and think is important in life.

This can include morals, but can also include things that aren't conventionally thought of as morals.

Beauty, courage, pleasure are not typically thought of as morals, though they can be considered values or virtues

Beauty has no unit of measurement.
Courage has no unit of measurement.
Pleasure has no unit of measurment.
Morals has no unit of measurement.

No value in any of them. They are simply subjective descriptions.

No, you didn't change anything with post #8.

 

[Cypress]

Beauty has no unit of measurement.
Courage has no unit of measurement.
Pleasure has no unit of measurment.
Morals has no unit of measurement.

No value in any of them. They are simply subjective descriptions.

No, you didn't change anything with post #8.

Bulverism
Argument from ignorance fallacy
Fallacy 36b.

hint: energy and matter are not interchangeable

Wave-Particle duality is classical physics.

There is no such thing as an accelerating reference frame!!

There is no such thing as an 'accelerating frame of reference'.

Darwin's theory of evolution is not science

Axioms are not postulates!

Bulverism fallacy. Bigotry.

Bulverism. Bigotry. False Authority.

bigotry, bulverism

 

[Cypress]

So, since you support abortion (the murder of children for convenience) and indoctrination in schools rather than education and forcing kids to wear masks, that means you are an asshole? You are violating a universal ethical standard?

Bulverism
Argument from ignorance fallacy
Fallacy 36b.

hint: energy and matter are not interchangeable

Wave-Particle duality is classical physics.

There is no such thing as an accelerating reference frame!!

There is no such thing as an 'accelerating frame of reference'.

Darwin's theory of evolution is not science

Axioms are not postulates!

Bulverism fallacy. Bigotry.

Bulverism. Bigotry. False Authority.

bigotry, bulverism

 

[Cypress]

You are accountable for ALL of your decisions, both good and bad.

If you keep promises to business partners, you will be held accountable for that as well, for example. You gain trust with them.

There is no universal 'standard'. That said, some have offered guides to improve your life and the lives of others, including Jesus Christ, Buddah, George Washington, James Madison, various priests and monks, scientists, engineers, etc.

Bulverism
Argument from ignorance fallacy
Fallacy 36b.

hint: energy and matter are not interchangeable

Wave-Particle duality is classical physics.

There is no such thing as an accelerating reference frame!!

There is no such thing as an 'accelerating frame of reference'.

Darwin's theory of evolution is not science

Axioms are not postulates!

Bulverism fallacy. Bigotry.

Bulverism. Bigotry. False Authority.

bigotry, bulverism

 

[Cypress]

A value is purely objective. It is specific. It is a number with a unit of measurement.

Beauty has not unit of measurement. It is not a value.

The universe has no unit of measurement. It is not a value.

If no one makes a measurement, there is no value measured.

BOTH are reality. You should really study phenomenology, which defines words like 'reality' and gives the reasoning behind that definition.

Sicko moral behavior has no unit of measurement. It is not a value.

Bulverism
Argument from ignorance fallacy
Fallacy 36b.

hint: energy and matter are not interchangeable

Wave-Particle duality is classical physics.

There is no such thing as an accelerating reference frame!!

There is no such thing as an 'accelerating frame of reference'.

Darwin's theory of evolution is not science

Axioms are not postulates!

Bulverism fallacy. Bigotry.

Bulverism. Bigotry. False Authority.

bigotry, bulverism

 

[NiftyNiblick]

Is it required to come to a consensus conclusion on this subject?

What will be the consequence of failing?

The subjectivity / objectivity of values
seems like something about which
we can all safely hold our own opinions
without causing international incidents.

I suppose that I could be wrong,
but that's my take for now.

 

[Cypress]

Is it required to come to a consensus conclusion on this subject?

What will be the consequence of failing?

The subjectivity / objectivity of values
seems like something about which
we can all safely hold our own opinions
without causing international incidents.

I suppose that I could be wrong,
but that's my take for now.

I'm willing to hear other opinions, but I don't think I'm wrong.

Beauty is is a universal value
Ugliness isnt valued.

Courage is universally valued.
Cowardice isn't.

Whether one likes a sunset, a snowclad mountain, or the aesthetic charms of Boston those are all just individual facts


What underlies them all is a universal human need for beauty and aesthetics. We objectively hold beauty to have intrinsic value.