Aristotle's Politics vs. Thomas More's Utopia

Cypress said:
I am one of the few posters here who can say they voted for Ronald Reagan and George HW Bush, as well as Barack Obama and Joe Biden.

So in a very real sense, I am one of the few here who can change their mind based on new information and reflection.
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Who in the hell is "their"?
 
NiftyNiblick said:
WOW!!!! That's unfathomable to me.

I voted for Humphrey against Nixon,
McGovern against Nixon,
Carter against Ford,
Carter against Reagan,
Mondale against Reagan,
Dukakis against HW,
Clinton against HW,
Clinton against Dole,
Gore against W,
Kerry, against W,
Obama against McCain.
Obama against Romney,
Clinton against Trump,
and Biden against Trump.

Apparently my mind doesn't have a reset button!
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Self reflection, revaluation, reconsideration have been a part of my life, particularly now that I've been around more than half a century.


I used to be a huge NFL and NBA fan until I really reflected on what value there was added to my life in dedicating four hours every Sunday, and several hours every week reading the sports page, SI magazine, and watching the Lakers. : )
 
BidenPresident said:
Makes sense. You are a conservative.
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First of all, Hillary Clinton started out as young Republican.

Second of all, there was a liberal wing of the Republic party in 1980. Longtime Republican congressman John Anderson ran for president to the left of Jimmy Carter in 1980.
 
Cypress said:
Self reflection, revaluation, reconsideration have been a part of my life, particularly now that I've been around more than half a century.


I used to be a huge NFL and NBA fan until I really reflected on what value there was added to my life in dedicating four hours every Sunday, and several hours every week reading the sports page, SI magazine, and watching the Lakers. : )
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A half century doesn't seem that long to me,
but even with plenty of self reflection over 77 years,
I've never once been tempted to vote for a Republican.

I've never been an MLB, NFL, NHL, or NBS fan.
I never cared about out of market games.

I've been a Red Sox, Patriots, Bruins, and Celtics fan,
but now, in my dotage,

the Red Sox and Patriots have to be good for me to care,

and I don't know that the indoor winter teams even exist

unless they make the finals.

Then I'll root for them for the prestige of my Boston.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
A half century doesn't seem that long to me,
but even with plenty of self reflection over 77 years,
I've never once been tempted to vote for a Republican.

I've never been an MLB, NFL, NHL, or NBS fan.
I never cared about out of market games.

I've been a Red Sox, Patriots, Bruins, and Celtics fan,
but now, in my dotage,

the Red Sox and Patriots have to be good for me to care,

and I don't know that the indoor winter teams even exist

unless they make the finals.

Then I'll root for them for the prestige of my Boston.
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I liked the Celtics in the days of Bird, Parrish, McHale.But I always wanted the Lakers to beat them!


My father was a republican, so that was an influence on my younger self.

Also, my first truly concious, visceral experience with a Republican president was Gerald Ford, who seemed like a decent guy and good role model. I liked Ford way better than Reagan, and I didn't even want Dutch to win the 1980 GOP primary.
 
Cypress said:
First of all, Hillary Clinton started out as young Republican.

Second of all, there was a liberal wing of the Republic party in 1980. Longtime Republican congressman John Anderson ran for president to the left of Jimmy Carter in 1980.
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Yes, Hillary was a conservative. Why she lost to Trump.
 
BidenPresident said:
Yes, Hillary was a conservative. Why she lost to Trump.
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Bill Clinton folded like a cheap accordion at the hands of Gingrich and the Republican troglodytes,
signing bills that no decent Democrat would ever sign,
but that didn't stop them from impeaching him anyway.

Secretary Clinton paid dearly for defending her husband's political sins,
not for forgiving his penchant for fellatio from interns.

Even though she clearly won the popular vote,
she didn't inspire the Bernie people to vote on election day.

It wasn't the votes that the pigfucking orangutan got.
It was the progressive base staying home on election day.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
Bill Clinton folded like a cheap accordion at the hands of Gingrich and the Republican troglodytes,
signing bills that no decent Democrat would ever sign,
but that didn't stop them from impeaching him anyway.

Secretary Clinton paid dearly for defending her husband's political sins,
not for forgiving his penchant for fellatio from interns.

Even though she clearly won the popular vote,
she didn't inspire the Bernie people to vote on election day.

It wasn't the votes that the pigfucking orangutan got.
It was the progressive base staying home on election day.
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I did not vote for Hillary. And I do not regret it.
 
BidenPresident said:
I did not vote for Hillary. And I do not regret it.
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Thus, whether you actually voted for Trump or not,

you in practical terms voted for him

and this makes you irredeemable as a human being.

For as long as you live,

your life will be devoid of value in the eyes of most decent, intelligent, and civilized people.

I suspect that you already realize this, right?
 
NiftyNiblick said:
Thus, whether you actually voted for Trump or not,

you in practical terms voted for him

and this makes you irredeemable as a human being.

For as long as you live,

your life will be devoid of value in the eyes of most decent, intelligent, and civilized people.

I suspect that you already realize this, right?
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Egad, you're a stupid person.
 
Cypress said:
Elizabeth Warren was once Republican.
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The poor broad was from fucking Oklahoma.

She pronounces the word "aunt" like "ant," not acceptable from the Senior Senator of Massachusetts.

With such impossible beginnings, she made herself a Harvard professor and a progressive icon.

She may be a goddess.
 
Cypress said:
The polis, or Greek city-state, according to Aristotle, is the highest form of political association. Only by being a citizen of a polis can a person fully pursue a life of good quality, which is the end goal of human existence. Because one can only achieve this goal through political association, Aristotle concludes that "man is a political animal." As well as defending private property and condemning capitalism, Aristotle notoriously regards the institution of slavery as necessary to the workings of society.

Aristotle concludes that no present city or theory is ideal. He identifies cities with their respective constitutions and categorizes six different kinds of cities, three good and three bad. The three good kinds are politeia, or constitutional government; aristocracy; and kingship. The three bad kinds are democracy, oligarchy, and tyranny.

A good constitution is formulated according to the principle of distributive justice: equal people are treated equally and unequal people are treated unequally. People are deemed more or less valuable to society according to the contributions they make to the life of the city. Though Aristotle states that a constitutional government with a sovereign set of laws is ideal, he admits that in cases where there is an outstanding group or individual, aristocracy or kingship might be preferable.


Thomas More’s Utopia is a Christian-humanist view of an ideal society. More offers this vision not only as a mental ideal, but also as one that humans can strive to create in this world. The text is a self-conscious effort by More to offer his readers a Christianization of Plato’s Republic. More’s book, Utopia, is the last great Christian synthesis of the Renaissance. The Christian aspect of the synthesis is Christ’s gospel of caring for the poor, the oppressed, and the downtrodden.

Utopian society is characterized by the communal ownership of property. All property in Utopia was owned by the community and all production, except agriculture, was located in the household. Trades were assigned on the basis of aptitude and choice, and the householdwas the locus of all production. All houses were maintained publicly, without locks. Utopians treasured leisure—not for the sake of idleness, but to spend their ctime in hobbies and the pursuit of various avenues of self-improvement. Marriage was for love, not by arrangement.

The parliament’s function was to allocate goods and labor to the individual towns, as well as to set foreign policy and create new colonies. The parliament didn’t pass laws, because society, lacking private property, didn’t need them. Teachers, priests, and rulers were chosen from the intellectual class. Utopians fought wars for only three reasons: to defend their territory, to defend the territory of an ally, or to liberate oppressed people. Everyone, including women, is trained for combat in case Utopia must be defended.




Source credits

SparkNotes hyperlink
And
Course guidebook for The Western Intellectual Tradition, Darren Staloff City College of New York, et al
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The assessment of Aristotle seems accurate.
 
BidenPresident said:
The assessment of Aristotle seems accurate.
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Aristotle and Plato probably had a rather jaundiced view of direct democracy because they were living in the shadow of the Peleponesian war, in which demagogues convinced the democratic assembly to wage a disastrous war on Sparta and to approve the catastrophic invasion of Sicily.
 
Cypress said:
Aristotle and Plato probably had a rather jaundiced view of direct democracy because they were living in the shadow of the Peleponesian war, in which demagogues convinced the democratic assembly to wage a disastrous war on Sparta and to approve the catastrophic invasion of Sicily.
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No nation even aspired to direct democracy. It is a fable constructed by right wingers.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
The poor broad was from fucking Oklahoma.

She pronounces the word "aunt" like "ant," not acceptable from the Senior Senator of Massachusetts.

With such impossible beginnings, she made herself a Harvard professor and a progressive icon.

She may be a goddess.
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People change. Ronald Reagan started out as a New Deal Democrat.
 
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