Aristotle's Politics vs. Thomas More's Utopia

No nation even aspired to direct democracy. It is a fable constructed by right wingers.

It's never been tried, and wouldn't work in the modern nation state.

The rightwing has been ordered to never admit a representative democracy is a type of democracy.

Every male citizen in Athens had the right to participate in the Athenian assembly by the time of Pericles, so it was a novel and unique democratic experiment
 
It's never been tried, and wouldn't work in the modern nation state.

The rightwing has been ordered to never admit a representative democracy is a type of democracy.

Every male citizen in Athens had the right to participate in the Athenian democracy by the time of Pericles, so it was a novel and unique democratic experiment

Athens prevented most people from voting. No women, no slaves, no craftsmen (working class).
 
Athens prevented most people from voting. No women, no slaves, no craftsmen (working class).

I wrote all male citizens were allowed to vote.

Slaves and women were not considered citizens.

By ancient standards, universal suffrage for all male citizens was extremely radical.

Women weren't allowed to vote anywhere until about 100 years ago.
 
I wrote all male citizens were allowed to vote.

Slaves and women were not considered citizens.

By ancient standards, universal suffrage for all male citizens was extremely radical.

Women weren't allowed to vote anywhere until about 100 years ago.

All males were not allowed to vote.
 
All males were not allowed to vote.

I didn't say all males.

I said all male citizens.


Not all males residing in the United States are allowed to vote either. You have to over 18 and a citizen. Resident aliens, green card holders, recent immigrants are not allowed to vote.

In Athens, a male was a citizen if he was native born to the polis, and either owned property or was available for military service, or had served in the militia or navy.. That pretty much included all free born indigenous Athenian males.
 
Here where Aristotle and More agree

"Though Aristotle states that a constitutional government with a sovereign set of laws is ideal, he admits that in cases where there is an outstanding group or individual, aristocracy or kingship might be preferable."

"Teachers, priests, and rulers were chosen from the intellectual class."

This is something we see at work in our present time. The emergence of "experts" who are, according to some, to be believed without question. Sad
You believe Trump without question and he's a fucking moron.

FWIW, I got my ass beat on a regular basis in grade school for questioning authority. By the time I got too big to have my ass beat, I also learned the art of "How to properly question authority without penalty".

Those on 1/6 never learned that lesson. Most of those who are non-violent and voted in the current election did learn the lesson. Where do you call in those lessons, Yak?
 
The big difference that strikes me is Aristotle's vigorous defense of private property, while Thomas More eschews private property in favor of communal ownership.

Expertise was turned into a bad word by rightwing talk radio in the 1990s and early 2000s. Because Rush Limbaugh wanted Dittoheads to believe him and Fox over scientists and historians

There's almost two thousand years of civilization between Aristotle and More...not to mention the entire Roman Empire. Aristotle lived under Alexander the Great. It'd be a fair guess that such events would have impact upon a person's perceptions of the world.

Agreed on expertise. In the 60s it was hip and cool to question authority. After Rush and Newt, it became fashionable for RWers to completely distrust anything other than RW authority.
 
There's almost two thousand years of civilization between Aristotle and More...not to mention the entire Roman Empire. Aristotle lived under Alexander the Great. It'd be a fair guess that such events would have impact upon a person's perceptions of the world.

Agreed on expertise. In the 60s it was hip and cool to question authority. After Rush and Newt, it became fashionable for RWers to completely distrust anything other than RW authority.

I think the authority kids in the 60s were questioning was parental authority, political authority, religious authority., cultural authority.

I don't think the intent was to question the authority of medical science, physics, biology.


I agree that all historical figures have to be seen in the historical context of their times.
 
I think the authority kids in the 60s were questioning was parental authority, political authority, religious authority., cultural authority.

I don't think the intent was to question the authority of medical science, physics, biology.


I agree that all historical figures have to be seen in the historical context of their times.

Correct. The fact they took over a few University President offices indicates they weren't that keen on higher education authority either. :)

Not sure about that. It was around the 1960s that the revelations about the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiments and the CIA LSD experiments came to light.

FWIW, all the idiots who are claiming the US is going to Hell and on the brink of Civil War either didn't live through the 1960s or are too demented to remember it.

https://www.icp.org/browse/archive/...itting-behind-university-president-kirks-desk
upsham_gerald_1920_2005_422493_displaysize.jpg
 
Correct. The fact they took over a few University President offices indicates they weren't that keen on higher education authority either. :)

Not sure about that. It was around the 1960s that the revelations about the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiments and the CIA LSD experiments came to light.

FWIW, all the idiots who are claiming the US is going to Hell and on the brink of Civil War either didn't live through the 1960s or are too demented to remember it.

https://www.icp.org/browse/archive/...itting-behind-university-president-kirks-desk
upsham_gerald_1920_2005_422493_displaysize.jpg

That's true, science has been used for evil, just like religion and capitalism have.


I've been hearing from white supremacists since the 1980s that we are right on the cusp of a civil war.

STY is going to go to his grave still hollering about the imminent civil war
 
That's true, science has been used for evil, just like religion and capitalism have.


I've been hearing from white supremacists since the 1980s that we are right on the cusp of a civil war.

Anything made by man, especially our specialty Tools, can be used for Good or Evil.

They're dumbasses who stole the idea from 1960s Liberals. LOL
 
The polis, or Greek city-state, according to Aristotle, is the highest form of political association. Only by being a citizen of a polis can a person fully pursue a life of good quality, which is the end goal of human existence. Because one can only achieve this goal through political association, Aristotle concludes that "man is a political animal." As well as defending private property and condemning capitalism, Aristotle notoriously regards the institution of slavery as necessary to the workings of society.

Aristotle concludes that no present city or theory is ideal. He identifies cities with their respective constitutions and categorizes six different kinds of cities, three good and three bad. The three good kinds are politeia, or constitutional government; aristocracy; and kingship. The three bad kinds are democracy, oligarchy, and tyranny.

A good constitution is formulated according to the principle of distributive justice: equal people are treated equally and unequal people are treated unequally. People are deemed more or less valuable to society according to the contributions they make to the life of the city. Though Aristotle states that a constitutional government with a sovereign set of laws is ideal, he admits that in cases where there is an outstanding group or individual, aristocracy or kingship might be preferable.


Thomas More’s Utopia is a Christian-humanist view of an ideal society. More offers this vision not only as a mental ideal, but also as one that humans can strive to create in this world. The text is a self-conscious effort by More to offer his readers a Christianization of Plato’s Republic. More’s book, Utopia, is the last great Christian synthesis of the Renaissance. The Christian aspect of the synthesis is Christ’s gospel of caring for the poor, the oppressed, and the downtrodden.

Utopian society is characterized by the communal ownership of property. All property in Utopia was owned by the community and all production, except agriculture, was located in the household. Trades were assigned on the basis of aptitude and choice, and the householdwas the locus of all production. All houses were maintained publicly, without locks. Utopians treasured leisure—not for the sake of idleness, but to spend their ctime in hobbies and the pursuit of various avenues of self-improvement. Marriage was for love, not by arrangement.

The parliament’s function was to allocate goods and labor to the individual towns, as well as to set foreign policy and create new colonies. The parliament didn’t pass laws, because society, lacking private property, didn’t need them. Teachers, priests, and rulers were chosen from the intellectual class. Utopians fought wars for only three reasons: to defend their territory, to defend the territory of an ally, or to liberate oppressed people. Everyone, including women, is trained for combat in case Utopia must be defended.




Source credits

SparkNotes hyperlink
And
Course guidebook for The Western Intellectual Tradition, Darren Staloff City College of New York, et al

LOL. Now you're just quoting sparknotes? What's next, poseur? Cliff's Notes? Do you own a lot of those? I bet you do.

LOLLOLOLOL.

What a poseur.
 
LOL. Now you're just quoting sparknotes? What's next, poseur? Cliff's Notes? Do you own a lot of those? I bet you do.

LOLLOLOLOL.

What a poseur.

Facts are facts, Perry. It doesn't matter the source as long as it is reputable.

Why do those who are smarter and/or better educated than you bother you so much?
 
Facts are facts, Perry. It doesn't matter the source as long as it is reputable.

Why do those who are smarter and/or better educated than you bother you so much?

Digging up buried threads of mine to vent on is obviously a sign of obsession driven by festering resentment.
 
Digging up buried threads of mine to vent on is obviously a sign of obsession driven by festering resentment.

The fact Perry's personality changes between hot and cold indicates to me he's bipolar.

Normal people have moods and can be either happy or cranky, friendly or snippy, but overall, they have a normal range and don't stray too far from it. They often have pet peeves (just ask me about gun bans! LOL) but, again, often remain within the normal range of both society and themselves. Not so with Perry.

Perry can be very reasonable and discuss a topic intelligently then, like flipping a switch, act like a spoiled 13 year old boy, as he did above. IMO, that ain't normal and my best guess is bipolarism.

If true, it would have a negative impact on his professional career. Depending upon severity, even a deathblow to working for a reputable company in a high-paying position. It would be "normal" for someone in such a situation to resent the unfairness of it all and spread that resentment in the form of hatred to anyone who is intelligent, educated and normal.
 
The fact Perry's personality changes between hot and cold indicates to me he's bipolar.

Normal people have moods and can be either happy or cranky, friendly or snippy, but overall, they have a normal range and don't stray too far from it. They often have pet peeves (just ask me about gun bans! LOL) but, again, often remain within the normal range of both society and themselves. Not so with Perry.

Perry can be very reasonable and discuss a topic intelligently then, like flipping a switch, act like a spoiled 13 year old boy, as he did above. IMO, that ain't normal and my best guess is bipolarism.

If true, it would have a negative impact on his professional career. Depending upon severity, even a deathblow to working for a reputable company in a high-paying position. It would be "normal" for someone in such a situation to resent the unfairness of it all and spread that resentment in the form of hatred to anyone who is intelligent, educated and normal.

I hope he has his shrink on speed dial, because it doesn't seem normal to scream at me and stew in simmering resentment. I am just here to bash Trump and shoot the shit about things that interest mee!
 
I hope he has his shrink on speed dial, because it doesn't seem normal to scream at me and stew in simmering resentment. I am just here to bash Trump and shoot the shit about things that interest mee!

Since he has swings, I doubt he is seeing anyone nor taking his meds. I've seen the problem before; bipolars like the "high", the manic phase, so they stop taking their meds.
 
Facts are facts, Perry. It doesn't matter the source as long as it is reputable.

Why do those who are smarter and/or better educated than you bother you so much?

You guys get all your thoughts from Cliffs Notes because understanding a topic is too highbrow. And you losers who could barely shuffle through undergrad still want to feel like you're super duper smart.

LOLOLOL.
 
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