At What Point?

2 Aaron answered them, “Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me.” 3 So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods,[b] Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”

5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord.” 6 So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.

7 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. 8 They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’

9 “I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them.
 
Blackwater Lunchbreak said:
you deserve scorn, papist trash, but you finally read the Bible right.


There is a new covenant.
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I'm not Catholic, and never have been. I am not even a practicing Christian. But I am probably the only person on this board who has been to a range of Protestant, Roman Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox services. That's one reason I have a deeper understanding and insight about Christianity than most bible thumpers do about their own religion
 
Cypress said:
I'm not Catholic, and never have been. I am not even a practicing Christian. But I am probably the only person on this board who has been to a range of Protestant, Roman Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox services. That's one reason I have a deeper understanding and insight about Christianity than most bible thumpers do about their own religion
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no you aren't probably that.

you're a douchey nutsuck faker.
 
Cypress said:
Ritual purity is the point of Torah law. Germs and viruses were unknown in first century AD, so purity had nothing to do with hygiene from the perspective of Torah.

This is a totally boring point to belabour, but thanks for once again confirming that Jesus did not follow Torah ritual purity law in the way conventional Jews like the Pharisees conceived of it

Jesus had reimagined the Torah laws of Sabbath and ritual purity in a way that was either odd, or offensive to the conventional Jews of Pharisaic and Sadducaic traditions.
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He didn't reimagine he corrected our understanding of them. You even state he didn't practice then in the "conventional" way because that was the wrong way but he still followed them. Catholics still follow the purity laws. One must be properly disposed in order to worthily record the Eucharist. If someone is conscious of a mortal sin they must refrain from receiving the Eucharist. To receive it unworthily is to call condemnation down on oneself just as Paul said.

I fully understand why you might see this as a "boring point to belabour"
 
Yakuda said:
He didn't reimagine he corrected our understanding of them.
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A distinction without a difference, because the end result is the same.

Jesus reinterpreted, reimagined, conceived of the "correct" practice of Torah (take your pick) in a way the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes didn't, and in fact in a way they found either odd or offensive.
 
Cypress said:
A distinction without a difference, because the end result is the same.

Jesus reinterpreted, reimagined, conceived of the "correct" practice of Torah (take your pick) in a way the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes didn't, and in fact they found odd or offensive.
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No it's very distinct difference which most supposed "bible believing" and supposed theology "experts" don't want to "belabour".
 
Cypress said:
American fundamentalists deserve scorn.

Christians quoting Leviticus is stupid. One of the most well known messages from Paul's epistles is that the laws of Torah do not apply to christians, and Torah has been superceded by the final revelation of the NT.

Leviticus is in the very heart of the Torah.
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Bingo
 
Cypress said:
I'm not Catholic, and never have been. I am not even a practicing Christian. But I am probably the only person on this board who has been to a range of Protestant, Roman Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox services. That's one reason I have a deeper understanding and insight about Christianity than most bible thumpers do about their own religion
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you just think the things the Catholics added are the most important things in the faith. "Like heaven" , you said.

that's a value judgement by you.
 
Yakuda said:
No it's very distinct difference which most supposed "bible believing" and supposed theology "experts" don't want to "belabour".
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Matthew 15:2: the Pharisees complain that Jesus and his disciples did not follow the law of ritual purity.

It's fine to claim the Pharisees were wrong, and Jesus conceived of Torah in the correct way.

That simply doesn't change the fact that Jesus wasn't practicing ritual purity in the way the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes were. These Jews had been around longer than Jesus' ministry and were far more numerous than Jesus' ministry. So even claiming that Jesus was the one conceiving of Torah correctly, it still flew in the face of conventional practice by religious Jews of the first century.
 
Cypress said:
Matthew 15:2: the Pharisees complain that Jesus and his disciples did not follow the law of ritual purity.

It's fine to claim the Pharisees were wrong, and Jesus conceived of Torah in the correct way.

That simply doesn't change the fact that Jesus wasn't practicing ritual purity in the way the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes were. These Jews had been around longer than Jesus' ministry and were far more numerous than Jesus' ministry. So even claiming that Jesus was the one conceiving of Torah correctly, it still flew in the face of conventional practice by religious Jews of the first century.
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The Pharisees werent wrong they were more just impressed with their own "knowledge" of Scripture even though that knowledge was perverted. It's the same with today's supposed "bible believing" protestants. They aren't wrong to say faith is necessary for salvation they just pervert the message by claiming that faith alone is necessary. It flies in the face of what's true.
 
Yakuda said:
The Pharisees werent wrong they were more just impressed with their own "knowledge" of Scripture even though that knowledge was perverted. It's the same with today's supposed "bible believing" protestants. They aren't wrong to say faith is necessary for salvation they just pervert the message by claiming that faith alone is necessary. It flies in the face of what's true.
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Isn't it shame that God is incapable of providing a set of clear instructions on how to avoid eternal damnation to the creatures he so loves?
 
Yakuda said:
He was very clear. It's amazing how people always assume God is the problem.
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So you're saying that countless millions of people got it wrong but it was clear all along? If I was teaching a class and 90% of the students failed the test it is far more likely that I taught poorly.
 
Yakuda said:
The Pharisees werent wrong they were more just impressed with their own "knowledge" of Scripture even though that knowledge was perverted. It's the same with today's supposed "bible believing" protestants. They aren't wrong to say faith is necessary for salvation they just pervert the message by claiming that faith alone is necessary. It flies in the face of what's true.
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Protestants are supposed to embrace the same moral tenets found in the Sermon on the Mount, the parable of the good Samaritan, the Sermon on the plain, etc. that any other Christian does.

They just don't think these practices are a method to buy your way into heaven. Anyone who is trying to buy their way into heaven simply isn't doing Christianity the right way. That's why the indulgences so offended Luther. The Christian ethical tenets are simply part and parcel of living the authentic Christian life, and may be an outward sign one has received grace. . Virtue is it's own reward.
 
Obtenebrator said:
So you're saying that countless millions of people got it wrong but it was clear all along? If I was teaching a class and 90% of the students failed the test it is far more likely that I taught poorly.
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Yes. Maybe but if that 90% ignored your teaching because they thought they knew more or better than you then that would be their downfall. Pride kills people not an absence of clarity. The countless millions you referenced to were certain they knew better and more than God. They werent humble enough to listen, just like you. You can't be taught because you've already decided God is unclear. Stuff happens you don't like or agree with so you conclude you know better than God. That you know more than God. Therein lies your downfall
 
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Cypress said:
Protestants are supposed to embrace the same moral tenets of the Sermon on the Mount, the parable of the good Samaritan, the Sermon on the plain.

They just don't think these practices are a method to buy your way into heaven. Anyone who is trying to buy their way into heaven simply isn't doing Christianity the right way. That's why the indulgences so offended Luther. The Christian ethicsal tebrtstare simply part and parcel of living the authentic Christian life, and may be an outward sign one has received grace. . Virtue is it's own reward.
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You and the supposed "bible believing" protestants call it "buying" your way into heaven and thereby reject things to their own destruction. Scripture is clear Matthew 25: 32-46. Read it. Who enters heaven based on the reading? Romans 2:6-8. Titus 3:8. Hebrews 13:16.James 2:14. James 2:17. James 2:20. James 2:22..James 2:26. Revelation 2:23, 2:26.
 
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