Barrack Jimma Carter Obama
- Thread starter Topspin
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evince
Truthmatters
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The Almighty
LMAO... ok, fair enough. I appreciate your honesty on the issue.
Glad to help.
Obama isn't stupid and neither are his economic advisors. They know what the effect of a windfall tax would likely be but they also know that 1) they have to propose something, 2) a gas tax holiday is out of the question, 3) blanket tax relief isn't preferable, 4) revenue neutrality is key to distinguish from McCain's proposal and 5) "hitting" the gas companies is key.
As someone who is generally disposed to progressive taxation the windfall tax proposal with proceeds to offset the gas bills of low to moderate income folks fits the bill quite nicely, particularly when it has zero chance of becoming law.
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The Almighty
I cannot see youtube at work...was that in response to my request for the residental solar data? If so, I will watch it tonight.
FYI... as far as I have heard Megawatt is developing large scale production not residential installation. Is this what you meant when you said residential? That they would build large scale plants and feed it into the current grid to supplement coal and nat gas usage?
They know the effect will be a net cost to the end user, but still will do it because it appears as if they are "getting the gas companies"? Seriously, this is what you use to promote it as a good idea?
evince
Truthmatters
http://www.pointfocus.com/news/archives/2007/05/solar_energy_po.html
Solar power is the fastest growing source of energy in the world and likely will become much more affordable in the next few years, according to a new report out this week.
"As production costs fall, technologies continue to advance, and supply and demand come into balance," the report reads, "[solar power] prices will fall more than 40 percent in the next three years relative to prices in late 2006. Such a decline would make solar electricity far more affordable in markets across the globe."
Additionally, China's strong entry in the field could drive prices down even further, the report's authors predict.
Already, global production of solar photovoltaic (PV) cells, which turn sunlight directly into electricity, has risen six-fold since 2000 and grew 41 percent in 2006 alone, says the report from the Washington, DC-based Worldwatch Institute and the Prometheus Institute in Cambridge, Massachusetts. That makes solar power the world's fastest growing energy source, though grid-connected solar capacity still makes up less than 1 percent of the world market.
"Today, high cost is the largest barrier, but this is a temporary challenge," said Worldwatch's Janet Sawin, who authored the report.
The growth of solar power has been fastest in Japan and Germany, the report notes. Sawin said that's no accident. Those countries, she told OneWorld, have enacted laws friendly to solar power, which is generated without emitting carbon dioxide or other significant pollutants.
In Germany a law guarantees that owners of solar panels get a fixed price when they produce more solar energy than they consume and sell the excess back to the national electricity grid. In Spain, ordinances require "that new and renovated buildings include solar [power]."
Solar power is the fastest growing source of energy in the world and likely will become much more affordable in the next few years, according to a new report out this week.
"As production costs fall, technologies continue to advance, and supply and demand come into balance," the report reads, "[solar power] prices will fall more than 40 percent in the next three years relative to prices in late 2006. Such a decline would make solar electricity far more affordable in markets across the globe."
Additionally, China's strong entry in the field could drive prices down even further, the report's authors predict.
Already, global production of solar photovoltaic (PV) cells, which turn sunlight directly into electricity, has risen six-fold since 2000 and grew 41 percent in 2006 alone, says the report from the Washington, DC-based Worldwatch Institute and the Prometheus Institute in Cambridge, Massachusetts. That makes solar power the world's fastest growing energy source, though grid-connected solar capacity still makes up less than 1 percent of the world market.
"Today, high cost is the largest barrier, but this is a temporary challenge," said Worldwatch's Janet Sawin, who authored the report.
The growth of solar power has been fastest in Japan and Germany, the report notes. Sawin said that's no accident. Those countries, she told OneWorld, have enacted laws friendly to solar power, which is generated without emitting carbon dioxide or other significant pollutants.
In Germany a law guarantees that owners of solar panels get a fixed price when they produce more solar energy than they consume and sell the excess back to the national electricity grid. In Spain, ordinances require "that new and renovated buildings include solar [power]."
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The Almighty
In fairness, he said it was a good "political point" and not a good "policy".
Ah true.
It will help his guy win because it 'appears' to be 'hurting the gas companies'.
1) It will help some consumers, particularly low and moderate income consumers. It is a net cost to some end users, not all.
2) It's good politics but not great policy, as I said.
3) It's a good contrast to the McCain plan to give the oil companies a bunch more money.
You have a very narrow view of a measure like this. It's part of a longer strategy on reducing both dependence & consumption. The money gained from the tax can be used for a variety of investment for the long-term, as well as short-term relief.
I'm not hearing a lot of solutions from the peanut gallery on this thread, aside from "the oil industry owns us, and we should thank them for gouging us relentlessly..."
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The Almighty
yes Desh, I realize that solar growth as been amazing.... but that does not talk about residential costs breakeven points being down to two years.
So that you know, the bulk of the solar installation in Germany, Japan, China and the US has been seen on commercial properties and with large solar fields. Not residential. The problem lies in the efficiency. Larger commercial properties typically have more square footage and it allows them to use the thin film technology (which is less efficient than silicon, but much cheaper) whereas most residential property does not currently have the space to do so.
The solar technology with thin film is very close to being cost comptetive with coal WITHOUT government subsidies. Which is why Germany recently cut its government subsidies.... they did not need as much of a subsidy to be cost competitive. But again, this is on commerical right now.
I think what is likely is that once the commerical becomes cost competitive on its own, you will see government subsidies shift from commerical to residential to help narrow that breakeven time. But until that occurs or the technology for thin film is made more efficient or the costs of silicon cells comes down.... the breakeven point for residential remains in the 15 year range.
cawacko
Well-known member
The private sector is investing billions in alternative energy sources now. Check out the VC's on Sand Hill Rd. in the Silicon Valley and how much capital they are giving out. Changes are occuring but unfortunately it is not something that can happen overnight.
This windfall tax, which will not pass, is not going to bring the government investment dollars.
It wasn't my view that was narrow, it was a direct question, and an attempt to restate in different words what he was saying.
Basically, it would be a net cost to end user but it is good because it is wealth redistribution that appears to be hurting the 'evil gas companies'.
Which is basically is what it said, even when he restated it. If that is what you would use to say you think it is a good idea then you are the reason that I think partisan politics suck.
What you add, IMO, doesn't help much as the net cost to the end user is simply a negative that isn't worth that cost on this. If you want to tax the rich to send some money to research then do so, don't pretend it is a good idea to play with the cost of gasoline in an attempt at wealth redistribution and then use class envy as your reason for it.
You don't hear many solutions from me as I point out that the solutions are coming regardless of punishing 'evil oil companies' and even where those solutions are most likely to appear, mostly because I am pointing out where solutions are on the way rather than suggesting some wealth redistribution as a solution to energy costs.
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The Almighty
Please inform us how this measure will reduce either dependence on oil or consumption of oil. Seriously, because I do not see either occurring as a result as this has no impact on the oil companies.
If as Dung proposed it is a wealth rediostribution then it will likely increase consumption as those who would normally be hit hardest won't feel it as much and those who don't really feel it don't care. So if there is no pain (or less pain) associated with higher gas prices, how will that drive demand down?
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The Almighty
http://www.envirofit.org/
Look at the direct-injection retrofit kit. This is a non-profit set up by CSU.
http://www.envirofit.org/two_stroke_retrofit.html
THIS is a viable solution. It is a non-profit. You want to make a difference, contribute. Spread this everywhere you go. It will drastically reduce the fuel used by these two strokes AND it will drastically reduce their emissions.
thats why obama calling for a windfall tax is crazy. makes me think he has zero clue about economics.
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The Almighty
Or it is as Dung suggests and he is doing it because he knows the vast majority of lemmings will fall for it. I guess deception is ok if you are a dem.
cawacko
Well-known member
Or it is as Dung suggests and he is doing it because he knows the vast majority of lemmings will fall for it. I guess deception is ok if you are a dem.
That's the problem people do fall for it. As was stated yesterday Obama rightly called out McCain and Hillary for supporting the gas tax holiday as a Washington gimmick. Then he turns around with his own Washington gimmick of the windfall profits tax.
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The Almighty
Which is why the favor should be immediately returned. McCain should call him out and not only mock him for his gimmick, but also for his hypocricy.