C.S. Lewis vs. Friedrich Nietzsche

Christianity is based in resentment. One of Nietzsche's great insights:

The beginning of the slaves’ revolt in morality occurs when ressentiment itself turns creative and gives birth to values: the ressentiment of those
beings who, denied the proper response of action, compensate for it only with imaginary revenge. Whereas all noble morality grows out of a triumphant saying ‘yes’ to itself, slave morality says ‘no’ on principle to everything that is ‘outside’, ‘other’, ‘non-self’: and this ‘no’ is its creative deed.

This reversal of the evaluating glance – this essential orientation to the outside instead of back onto itself – is a feature of ressentiment: in order to come about, slave morality first has to have an opposing, external world, it needs, physiologically speaking, external stimuli in order to act at all, – its action is basically a reaction.

https://philosophy.ucsc.edu/news-events/colloquia-conferences/GeneologyofMorals.pdf
 
Celticguy said:
or...

it is simply codifying a shift in societal thinking.

Of course women would always have difficulties with this and lets face it, given that then are half the populations (roughly) they DID have possible recourse. SO quite naturally when circumstances changed so did the rules. Cads would continue to bang anything they could find the hips on and vice versa but normal people would do the right thing.

But that girl porpoise would wait and see which boy porpoise demonstrated superiority to see who shs got jiggy with.
Click to expand...

Well, you're right, it's all opinion. That's why we come here.

I just could never side with Thrasymachus over Socrates that might makes right, nor could I side with Protagoras that Man is the measure of all things.

I came down on the side of Plato and Socrates --> that there are enduring moral principles we aspire to because of our human nature and ability to use reason.
 
Cypress said:
Well, you're right, it's all opinion. That's why we come here.

I just could never side with Thrasymachus over Socrates that might makes right, nor could I side with Protagoras that Man is the measure of all things.

I came down on the side of Plato and Socrates --> that there are enduring moral principles we aspire to because of our human nature and ability to use reason.
Click to expand...

That is so, IMO, but to a lesser degree than I believe you see it.

Right and wrong ? You bet.
Woulda, coulda, shoulda ? Not so much.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Do you think this is a universal system as Cypress is asserting or simply a human devised system, something that works for us and our limitations?
Click to expand...

I think some of the most inspiring words in the English language, are Thomas Jefferson's preamble to the Declaration of Independence.

Jefferson is the role model of an Enlightenment age intellectual, but he unambiguously invokes natural law and a kind of universal moral order.


"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"
 
Celticguy said:
That is so, IMO, but to a lesser degree than I believe you see it.

Right and wrong ? You bet.
Woulda, coulda, shoulda ? Not so much.
Click to expand...

That's good enough for me --> we agree that by virtue of being human, we sense some kind of natural moral order which we compare as a baseline to our ethical choices.
 
Cypress said:
I think some of the most inspiring words in the English language, are Thomas Jefferson's preamble to the Declaration of Independence.

Jefferson is the role model of an Enlightenment age intellectual, but he unambiguously invokes natural law and a kind of universal moral order.


"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"
Click to expand...

Agreed to all above. None of which proves there is a universal moral code, an afterlife or supernatural force that cannot be measured.

To some degree, maybe that's the plan?

Ask the fundamental question: Why are we here?

If God was truly all powerful, all knowing and all merciful, why create the Universe? Why create only one?

One answer is simple: Entertainment. It's a game and we'll all willing participants as little pieces of God who are temporarily disconnected (unknowing) to facilitate game play.

God's game, of course, would be the BEST fucking Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game (MMORPG) ever!

There are alternative theories, but this one seems the most honest.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Agreed to all above. None of which proves there is a universal moral code, an afterlife or supernatural force that cannot be measured.

To some degree, maybe that's the plan?

Ask the fundamental question: Why are we here?

If God was truly all powerful, all knowing and all merciful, why create the Universe? Why create only one?

One answer is simple: Entertainment. It's a game and we'll all willing participants as little pieces of God who are temporarily disconnected (unknowing) to facilitate game play.

God's game, of course, would be the BEST fucking Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game (MMORPG) ever!

There are alternative theories, but this one seems the most honest.
Click to expand...

You're right there is no proof of any of it. Which is why a natural moral order has been discussed and debated since the time of Plato.

If there is a nature's god, a universal spirit, a Brahmin, a Dao, an Elan Vital, I do not know why it created the universe and the answer is unfathomable and unknowable by scientific experiment or human cognition. My two cents.
 
Cypress said:
You're right there is no proof of any of it. Which is why a natural moral order has been discussed and debated since the time of Plato.

If there is a nature's god, a universal spirit, a Brahmin, a Dao, an Elan Vital, I do not know why it created the universe and the answer is unfathomable and unknowable by scientific experiment or human cognition. My two cents.
Click to expand...
Agreed it's probably unknowable...although I'm open to possibilities. Certainly not knowable in our lifetimes.

That said, and similar to Pascal's Wager, if given a choice of believing "life has no purpose" versus "life is like MMORG, it's whatever you want to make it", I'll take the latter option. Just remember, in this game, game over really means "game over". LOL
 
BidenPresident said:
The beginning of the slaves’ revolt in morality occurs when ressentiment itself turns creative and gives birth to values: the ressentiment of those
beings who, denied the proper response of action, compensate for it only with imaginary revenge. Whereas all noble morality grows out of a triumphant saying ‘yes’ to itself, slave morality says ‘no’ on principle to everything that is ‘outside’, ‘other’, ‘non-self’: and this ‘no’ is its creative deed.

This reversal of the evaluating glance – this essential orientation to the outside instead of back onto itself – is a feature of ressentiment: in order to come about, slave morality first has to have an opposing, external world, it needs, physiologically speaking, external stimuli in order to act at all, – its action is basically a reaction.

https://philosophy.ucsc.edu/news-events/colloquia-conferences/GeneologyofMorals.pdf
Click to expand...

I think it is worth learning about what Nietzsche, Marx Freud, even Lenin thought about religion, which is why I included Nietzsche in the OP
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Agreed it's probably unknowable...although I'm open to possibilities. Certainly not knowable in our lifetimes.

That said, and similar to Pascal's Wager, if given a choice of believing "life has no purpose" versus "life is like MMORG, it's whatever you want to make it", I'll take the latter option. Just remember, in this game, game over really means "game over". LOL
Click to expand...
Lack of any higher purpose could explain higher alcohol consumption rates in the atheist/agnostic contingent, though I question the results of the study; I have seen the vodka flow freely in Eastern Orthodox circles :)

People in the U.S. who are actively involved in a religion are less likely to drink than people who are not as religious.

Sixty-two percent of atheists reported drinking in the last month and 26 percent reported binge drinking.

People with no religious affiliation are the most likely to drink and binge drink. Among those unaffiliated, people who are agnostic, claiming neither faith nor disbelief in God, are most likely to drink and binge drink, at 76 and 33 percent, respectively.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.us...ose-with-no-religious-affiliation?context=amp
Click to expand...
 
Cypress said:
Lack of any higher purpose could explain higher alcohol consumption rates in the atheist/agnostic contingent, though I question the results of the study; I have seen the vodka flow freely in Eastern Orthodox circles :)
Click to expand...

Interesting statistics. What about drunken Irish priests? :laugh:

https://www.usnews.com/news/nationa...less-than-those-with-no-religious-affiliation
People of certain religions were less likely to be drinkers than others. As a whole, Protestants were less likely to have consumed alcohol than Catholics. Sixty percent of Catholics and 51 percent of Protestants reported drinking in the last 30 days. While 15 percent of Protestants reported binge drinking, 17 percent of Catholics reported the same.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Interesting statistics. What about drunken Irish priests? :laugh:

https://www.usnews.com/news/nationa...less-than-those-with-no-religious-affiliation
People of certain religions were less likely to be drinkers than others. As a whole, Protestants were less likely to have consumed alcohol than Catholics. Sixty percent of Catholics and 51 percent of Protestants reported drinking in the last 30 days. While 15 percent of Protestants reported binge drinking, 17 percent of Catholics reported the same.
Click to expand...

I was a little shocked to see how often many people, of all religious persuasions, binge drink. Binge drinking at least once a month seems off the charts to me!
 
Jack said:
Yeah. I think Cypress is stuck in the 'there is a God behind everything' mindset.
Click to expand...

When the scientist in me sees patterns, I tend to think it means something.

We see Fibonacci numbers in nature everywhere: pine cones, daisys, pineapples, sunflowers, etc.
--> We don't exactly know what it means, but it must mean something.

When I see humanity over thousands of years incrementally bending towards a universal moral order of more equality, more fairness, more justice, more freedom, more respect for individual dignity, I think it means something.

I am not exactly sure what it means, but I think it means something. I don't think this bending arc of history is completely random, inexplicable, or just strictly a result of known evolutionary mechanisms.
 
Cypress said:
I think some of the most inspiring words in the English language, are Thomas Jefferson's preamble to the Declaration of Independence.

Jefferson is the role model of an Enlightenment age intellectual, but he unambiguously invokes natural law and a kind of universal moral order.


"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"
Click to expand...

But,but,but,He fucked a Black lady named Sally!:palm:
The world was not ready for that!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top