Can Obama actually lose/blow what should be the easiest presidential election?

Socrtease said:
Even in the polls that Chuck Todd went over this morning McCain is STILL favored by white people with 50% saying they are going to vote for him. Something like 42% of whites favored Obama. There are going to be alot of white people that don't vote for Obama because they don't like his politics, his social issues and his economic issues, but there is going to be a considerable majority that don't vote for him because he is black. Plain and simple that.
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I agree, and it's what's keeping the polls so close, along with the fact that we are as Onceler says, a pretty evenly split country.

At least one big union is spending millions to blanket states like PA and Ohio with pamphlets and ads about McCain and the economy. That's going to help I think, but many will just never do it. Thankfully, those are the 50 and overs, or the 45 and overs, wherever the line is drawn. The younger generations are not going to have this.
 
Ohio was just in the Obama column today. And one poll shows Florida a dead heat. McCain should be winning in florida handly. Now that the focus of the media and the dems is not Palin so much anymore, the republicans have the uneviable task of getting John McCain elected.
 
Darla said:
No, not no one, just Repukes, Libertarians, and bac.
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Calm down. No one asked me if I like him...I was asked if I think he will win. I do not think he will win because he is making the same dumb mistakes that were made in 2000 and 2004.
 
Blackflag said:
Calm down. No one asked me if I like him...I was asked if I think he will win. I do not think he will win because he is making the same dumb mistakes that were made in 2000 and 2004.
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What are those, though? I know what mistakes Gore & Kerry made, but I don't see those in Obama, at least not yet. I know you don't like the Biden pick, but tons of people did; it's a given he had to err on the side of experience & foreign policy, and, imo, Biden was the clear best of his finalists for VP.

I don't see him struggling to define himself or running from the past, as Gore did, or failing to take a clear stand and offer a true alternative to his opponent, as Kerry did. I just don't see it; I look at Obama's campaign, and I have a hard time being critical of it (and this is from someone who was dismayed at the campaigns in 2000 & 2004). People say he should go more negative, but that goes against his whole theme, and I think he has been as hard hitting as a politician can be in the past week or 2, without crossing the line into dirty.
 
Onceler said:
What are those, though? I know what mistakes Gore & Kerry made, but I don't see those in Obama, at least not yet. I know you don't like the Biden pick, but tons of people did; it's a given he had to err on the side of experience & foreign policy, and, imo, Biden was the clear best of his finalists for VP.

I don't see him struggling to define himself or running from the past, as Gore did, or failing to take a clear stand and offer a true alternative to his opponent, as Kerry did. I just don't see it; I look at Obama's campaign, and I have a hard time being critical of it (and this is from someone who was dismayed at the campaigns in 2000 & 2004). People say he should go more negative, but that goes against his whole theme, and I think he has been as hard hitting as a politician can be in the past week or 2, without crossing the line into dirty.
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Obama should be ahead by 15 points.

I don't think its totally his fault. He's a black man for one thing, he's got a much higher bar to jump than white male candidates.

20 years of rightwing talk radio has also propagandized 40 million americans into voting against their own interests, like trained dogs. Even when clear evidence of the failure of their voting choices is staring them in the face.

That said, I think Obama has to some extent been far too reactive and not proactive enough.

If Obama wants to win this thing, he's got to have three talking points and hammer them day after day after day.

Look at what republicans do: They rode that "celebrity" garbage for two months straight. They rode that Reverend Wright crap, day after day, for months on end.

Democrats will hit McCain on something for like two days in a row and then give up and go looking for something else. That thing with McCain not knowing how many houses he owned? They should have been hammering that day after day, week after week.

McCain is a liar. McCain is an enabler of failed republican policies. McCain is Bush's third term. That's it. Hammer it day after day after day. Non stop 24/7. Be harsh. Be on the attack. Always.

That's one thing I've learned about republicans. They don't know how to govern. But, they know how to win elections.
 
Obama has the ammo now to use against Palin and her running mate on the economy. the question is will he keep the bullet in his pocket or load and fire ?

No dirty tricks or deception is needed.
 
Blackflag said:
Calm down. No one asked me if I like him...I was asked if I think he will win. I do not think he will win because he is making the same dumb mistakes that were made in 2000 and 2004.
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Ok, sorry for jumping at you.

What mistakes do you think he is making?
 
Well, to address both usc and Cypress, I’m not saying you guys are wrong, exactly. But Obama has been hitting McCain hard, just not nasty. Maybe he needs to get nasty, but not now. Because right now, McCain is suffering a huge backlash against his own nastiness, and the campaign he has been running. Let’s allow that to play out. Look, Obama’s not a nasty guy. He’s just not. Even when he is hitting McCain hard, he’s funny about it. Should he be someone he’s not? I think we learned from Kerry, that no he shouldn’t be…unless things are dire, then maybe he can take a hammer to McCain’s face, but we’re not at that point. Obama is rebounding, he’s doing ok.
 
"But Obama has been hitting McCain hard, just not nasty."

I completely agree with this. Every time I have heard him speak over the past couple of weeks, he has been hitting McCain, and hard (like you said, it's in his funny kind of way, which I think is a lot better & sounds a lot less defensive, anyway).

I think it's just become one of those things that gets repeated a lot in the media and elsewhere, and creates an impression that overshadows the reality. Obama shouldn't be something he's not, and he doesn't need to get nasty or dirty.
 
Onceler said:
What do you want me to tell you, BAC? You think George Bush was a genius pick, and Cheney even better? Did the GOP "out-smart" the Dems when the picked the biggest rube imaginable to head their ticket in 2000?

Obama's running a good campaign; 10x better than Gore's. You want to believe that racism has nothing to do with the fact that he has an incredibly difficult time breaking 48% in the polls, at pretty much any time this year, fine. You think it's his "rush to the center" that's killing him; I disagree with that, vehemently. If he was running as a "true liberal," he'd be getting slaughtered right now; the GOP campaign machine feasts on that.

I can't account or explain for the relentless stupidity of the American people. It's hard to remember an election when large groups of people didn't vote against their own self-interest. And you want me to explain that.
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You're smart enough to debate what I've actually said without trying to put senseless words in my mouth so you can have a point.

I've never said or implied that either Bush or Cheney were "genius" picks .. but yes, the republicans outsmarted the democrats in 2000 even though their pick was an undeniable rube .. AND they did it again in 2004 when he became the icon for all further rubeage.

Nor did I ever suggest that Obama run as a liberal .. my point .. if you can actually comment on .. is that he has abandoned literally everything he stood on during the primaries. Had he run on the political stances he's taking now I would have never supported him and he would not be the nominee. If you disagree with that I'd like to hear it.
 
Darla said:
you know I'm so sick of you ignoring the fact that sorry bac, but guess what? He got about 19 million total votes in the primary? How m any of them were white people? Millions, yeah. Anywhere near the number he would need in a far less liberal general electorate? NOOOOOO. NOOOOO.

Stop pretending that just because 19 million communists didn't go to teh fucking polls during the fucking democratic primary, that the democratic BASE, isn't far to the left of the general electorate. It makes you look stupid. I don't think you're stupid. Is this an act?

If OBama loses OHio, in this economy - it's racism. Got it? Good.

The people who moved to McCain, they're all disaffected black leftists, right bac?

And Obama is a republican now in most people's minds.

Stop stating your personal, far left grievences as representative facts. And stop talking down to people who still support Obama. It's so fucking old man.
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Gee .. I really needed your dissertation on racism. I imagine I would have never recognized it if you didn't point it out for me.

And thanks for educating me on what "black leftist" do .. none of whom are voting for McCain.

Suggesting that if Obama isn't elected racism will be the cause does not help those of us who fight against ACTUAL fucking racism.
 
blackascoal said:
Gee .. I really needed your dissertation on racism. I imagine I would have never recognized it if you didn't point it out for me.

And thanks for educating me on what "black leftist" do .. none of whom are voting for McCain.

Suggesting that if Obama isn't elected racism will be the cause does not help those of us who fight agianst ACTUAL fucking racism.
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Well, since it's the truth, I'll mention it anyway.

And feel no need to apologize or take lectures from you over it.
 
"is that he has abandoned literally everything he stood on during the primaries"

I haven't seen that, at all. I see a guy who is still pledging to accelerate alt energy with a $150 billion investment, still looking to overhaul NCLB & nationalized testing, still committed to withdrawing troops from Iraq, still committed to his healthcare plan, still proposing additonal aid & tax breaks for college tuition, etc.

I don't get where you're coming from here; "abandoned literally everything" is the height of hyperbole...
 
Onceler said:
"is that he has abandoned literally everything he stood on during the primaries"

I haven't seen that, at all. I see a guy who is still pledging to accelerate alt energy with a $150 billion investment, still looking to overhaul NCLB & nationalized testing, still committed to withdrawing troops from Iraq, still committed to his healthcare plan, still proposing additonal aid & tax breaks for college tuition, etc.

I don't get where you're coming from here; "abandoned literally everything" is the height of hyperbole...
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Yeah I am at a loss to fully understand BAC's stance.
 
Onceler said:
"is that he has abandoned literally everything he stood on during the primaries"

I haven't seen that, at all. I see a guy who is still pledging to accelerate alt energy with a $150 billion investment, still looking to overhaul NCLB & nationalized testing, still committed to withdrawing troops from Iraq, still committed to his healthcare plan, still proposing additonal aid & tax breaks for college tuition, etc.

I don't get where you're coming from here; "abandoned literally everything" is the height of hyperbole...
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Hyperbole?

FISA .. after pledging to filibuster any bill which contained immunity for telecommunications companies involved in electronic surveillance

Off-shore drilling

Meeting with foreign leaders we don't like

The Cuba Embargo

Immigration

Single-Payer Healthcare and an Individual Health Care Mandate

NAFTA

Donations from lobbyists and PACS

Jerusalem

Shifted from opposing welfare reform to celebrating it

Shifted his position on nuclear power

Shifted on legislation labeling Iran's Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization and on the threat of Iran

Patriot Act

D.C. Handgun ban

Death penalty

Abortion .. AND he insisted he voted for protecting infants who survive abortion, but he actually voted against just such a law. When he insisted that he only voted against it because it would water down abortion, he lied because the law included such a provision.

Considering reducing corporate taxes despite having called Corporate Tax Cuts "The exact wrong prescription for America"

Even the on the one issue that propelled him into the nomination Iraq and the withdrawal of troops from Iraq.

He now considers the "surge" a success "beyond anyone's wildest dreams"

Now he speaks of war and further intrusion into Afghanistan and Pakistan.

He's taken the wrong position on Georgia and backs passing one billion dollars of US taxpayer money to Georgia .. far from the "different course" he promised during the campaign.

Hyperbole?

You haven't seen these flip-flops because you haven't been looking .. nor do I believe you care to see them.
 
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